Meghan Klein Toups
Anxiety is such a common cause of suffering. Many of us have struggled with it, or know someone who has, and yet we often fail to understand it or how to cope with it.
I’m so excited to share this interview with you. Therapist Meghan Klein Toups specializes in anxiety, and she helps us understand and redefine our relationship with anxiety. Meghan combines her knowledge and expertise with genuine warmth and care.
Compassion, holistic healing, and higher consciousness are the tenets of Meghan’s approach to facilitating healing and wellness. She’s an integrative psychotherapist and health coach, currently working toward her PhD in Psychology. Using various healing modalities like meditation, mindfulness, gut health, nutrition and nature, Meghan’s work focuses on healing from within.
She owns a health and wellness business with her husband called Merge Health, Fitness & Nutrition and specializes in the holistic treatment of anxiety, stress, and depression. She has a special interest in helping mothers and young people to overcome anxiety. Meghan's approach is "whole-istic" and she looks at each client from a mind, body, and spirit perspective. Meghan leads wellness workshops, retreats and interactive classes nationwide and is an instructor of psychology at the University of West Georgia.
To find Meghan, and all the work she is doing please visit www.MeghanToups.com
Listen to the interview below or wherever you get your podcasts.
Transcript of Interview Below:
Monica:
so I just wanted to start with, if you could tell us just a little bit about yourself and why you became a therapist in particular, one that specializes in anxiety.
Meghan:
Well, I tried my hardest to not become a therapist. Well, I say that. But I tried to go the broadcast journalist route and do communications, and you know explore that other side of myself. ButI kept coming back to people. I love people and I love their stories. I love the just connection and relationality that is created through relationships and connection. I believe in people, and I love them. And I've always seen the potential in people, seen their highest self. So I love in the process of therapy we are able to excavate and compassionately look at their entire selves. It's the greatest gift of a profession I ever could have imagined. I love being a therapist.
Monica:
Oh, I love that. I don't think I've, I've heard someone say that, um, their love for people kind of drove them into the field. I think sometimes people are a little bit wary of therapists, you know? I don't know if you ever get that. Sometimes I get that. Yeah. But I think when you're in the field, you see how much therapists really believe in people. Just like you were saying.
Meghan:
Yeah, we do. I feel like we really, we love people and we're also not afraid to sit with someone suffering. And I think that such, you know, when I teach my, my students in my intro to psych class, I always talk to them about can you sit with first of all your own suffering and the suffering of other people because we feel like we have to keep it all inside so much and then we feel alone and to be a therapist and be able to sit with that. And it's huge.
Monica:
Yes, absolutely. And I think that we underestimate, you know, how far we can go when we can just sit with people's pain. Right. Um, why anxiety? And I know you specialize in other things too. Um, but you know it for what we're talking about today. Tell us about this interest in anxiety.
Meghan:
Yeah. Well, I, you know, have been through my own healing journey of overcoming anxiety and understanding it better. Um, so I know what it feels like to have anxiety and to have panic attacks and to really struggle through those symptoms. I know how horrible they can be and I also know what it can be like to move through anxiety and feel like someone can recover from symptoms. And I just feel like it's an epidemic in our culture, especially among women. It just, so many people struggle with anxiety and it just touches so many lives.
Monica:
It really does. And you know, it's so interesting that um, so many of us in this field have had our own journey, you know, myself included that that's part of why we're is, well, I'll say for myself, it is, I'll ask you, is that part of why you're passionate about it? Because you've recovered and you know, Hey, this is possible and I want to help other people get there.
Meghan:
Absolutely. Yeah. You know that adage, healer, heal thyself. Yes. Yes. Because I know what it's like and because I have overcome it and it's not that I don't ever get anxiety anymore. Exactly. It's just that I can recognize it faster and rebound more quickly. And so that's what I kind of, my philosophy behind it is, is understand what the anxiety is saying to you. Learn how to heal your body and optimize it in a way that you can bounce back more quickly. So that's not necessarily getting rid of it or pressing it or throwing it away. It's just understanding why it's here. And understanding that there's a lot of things that you can do to overcome it. You know, healing your gut, eating different foods, creating a relationship. So there's a lot you can do.
Monica:
Um, and I love that you said that, especially since we're talking about anxiety and healing and all those sorts of things today, that healing isn't never feeling anxious again. Right? It's knowing how to deal with it. It's sort of changing the power differential that we have with anxiety when we're struggling now we, it'll still come, but we have tools and perhaps we're treating our bodies in way that make us able to combat it better.
Meghan:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's, that's huge because when I think culturally we get a diagnosis of anxiety and we think, okay, this is who I am, this is what I have forever and you know, I'd something I'm going to have to deal with forever. And it's not, you know, it's just learning that anxiety, and I say this a lot is as a messenger of the body. So if we can understand why it's here, what messages it's bringing to us, then we can feel more in control. We can also learn ways to cope and get rid of the symptoms more quickly. Yeah. So it's really just understanding it as a language.
Monica:
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I wanted to ask you about that. Um, you know about anxiety being a messenger of the body. Um, can you tell us a little bit more about what that means? You know, if anxiety is a messenger, what is it sometimes telling us?
Meghan:
Yeah. I believe that our body never lies to us and that our body is just constantly trying to reach a state of homeostasis. So it's trying to balance itself out all the time. You know, a craving is just a desire from the body to regulate itself. Anxiety as is a desire from our inner selves to make a change or to grow, heal. So it's bringing us deeper messages. It's just finding out what those messages are that are really difficult.
Monica:
What are some of the ways and therapy obviously being the biggest one that we're kind of talking about, but that we start to identify those messages or what are body, what ourselves are seeing through that anxiety? What are some ways like listening to ourselves going to therapy, what are some ways that people can do that?
Meghan:
Yeah. Listening to ourselves, going to therapy, um, you know, I think I'm, I teach a lot of mind, body connection. And so I think it's very important to, if we want to begin cultivating this practice to notice our body when it feels really good. And really just sitting in that and, and knowing what your kind of balance set point is and then noticing the different ways your body feels with different emotions. So if your body feels jittery or tired or you know, your brain is, is going, going, going, then that's an indication that something is off balance is off that homeostatic points, you know, that is that point in the body. And so then we can start identifying what that is. Yeah. And what you know is really going on behind it. And I can give an example if that helps.
Monica:
Oh, would love it.
Meghan:
Okay. So I'll give an example for myself. Um, so I had to make a, um, decision. I had to tell somebody that I was going with this other, you know, work choice. And I was really nervous about making it because the person I had to tell has, is a wonderful person and she's kind and has been super supportive. And I was so anxious about telling her that I had gone with his other work decision, that I was feeling a lot of anxiety. And so I kind of sat with myself and said, what's going on? So then I went and talked to my friend Corey and I kind of told the story to try to work it out and see what's going on. I said, Oh, there's my anxiety voice going off. And I said, really? It's my anxiety, but what's underneath that is the story that I tell myself that says programming, right? That's, that says if I tell someone no, then I'm not being perfect or I'm not doing, you know, I'm not being a certain type of person for someone else. And so underneath the anxiety, the message was, you know, heal that wound of perfectionism or trying to please. And so when I recognized that I was able to see, I am not anxiety as a diagnosis and beyond that.
Meghan:
Right? Yeah. I'm deeper. I have more, you know, we have this history and these unconscious beliefs and patterns that contribute to who we are. And so it's just this gentle uncovering of what's really going on so that you can compassionately approach life.
Monica:
I love that. I love that. So, so the, the anxiety as a messenger was really, um, also like an invitation for you to, to heal some part of you that said, you know what, you have to be like this to be loved.
Meghan:
Yes. Beautifully put. Yeah. Okay. Yes. And so you can challenge those. Yeah.
Monica:
Yeah. Um, I think, I find so often for myself and in the work that we do is that these, um, like you said, these unconscious beliefs are, people call them silent assumptions, right. That we have about ourselves are part of what drives our anxiety. Yeah, totally. I can't step out of that, or this will happen if I do.
Meghan:
Yeah. It's, it's fascinating. I mean, up until age seven, we're in, we're primarily in theta. Brainwave. So we're kind of in this hypnotic state. Yeah. Tell us what that means. Yeah. So, um, it's, it's this kind of slowing down where we're, we're easily, um, you could say hypnotize, but you know, as children were just so open and receptive to the world. And so we get these messages from the world because our brains are different. And so we learn about the world. We learned about who we are, we learn about who we are in relation to other people, family members, friends, you know, this contributes to our self worth and identity. And so all of these messages and beliefs are tucked away in our unconscious. And so, you know, the things that we learn even from when we're five can still fuel us. I mean, it's really fascinating as we can uncover these patterns of learned things that, yeah, I've learned assumptions about our own identity and about our relationship with other people.
Monica:
Yes. And so then is what we're saying is that, um, our anxiety that we're feeling today as grownups is an invitation to uncover those, you know, subconscious assumptions that we made from zero to seven.
Meghan:
Yeah. Beautiful. So it's really, it's this, you know, if you think about it archetypally it's, it's kind of this invitation to heal the inner wounded child child self because we all have the child as a piece of who we are today as an adult. And the child still drives us in a lot of ways.
Monica:
Okay. Makes so much sense. So, you know, with anxiety, um, I feel like it's commonly spoken about and you just did an amazing job of sort of unpacking a lot of what can drive it, but what are some common misconceptions that you see about it, about anxiety and that anxiety?
Meghan:
Well, I think first of all that it's a life sentence. You know, I think, yeah, when people get a diagnosis they think it's something that they have to struggle and deal with forever. And I personally don't believe that. Um, and we've already touched on that a lot. So I think that's, that's a big one is seeking that if you do have a diagnosis of anxiety seeking to kind of move your identity away from that word and just, and kind of externalize that a little bit. And other common misconceptions would be, maybe, I think it comes from people who don't. So if somebody has anxiety and they have a family member or friend who does not have anxiety, it can feel very upsetting to them. And I've seen this a lot, I don't know if you've seen it in your practice, is that you know, one partner or um, will have anxiety and the other won't. And so it can really make them feel bad about themselves.
Monica:
Yeah. That sort of the person that doesn't have anxiety really doesn't know how to relate to that doesn't know how to understand that.
Meghan:
Correct. Right, right. And, and it can exacerbate this feeling of differentness or something wrong with me.
Monica:
Which I think there's something wrong with me is often one of those silent assumptions that is it that is going underneath. You know, it's one of the common ones I run into. And then I love that you said this, um, you know, you are not your diagnosis being, you know, distinguishing yourself from that. I think that can give people so much hope.
Meghan:
It can. It can. And it's hard to do because I think also when we're suffering, we want to be able to name it. And I think in that way, you know, the naming of anxiety can be empowering, but it's this careful balance between not over identifying with it or yeah.
Monica:
Feeling like this is who I am. You know, it's a piece. It's a piece of me. Yes. And that's it. You know, what I see often is that anxiety can present really differently in different people. You know, sometimes you can be sitting with someone and they're describing something that sounds like they're struggling with anxiety and they're describing themselves that, that they're very calm, you know, um, that, that oftentimes people don't recognize that this is what they're feeling. You know, they'll describe not sleeping at night but saying that they're doing really great. Um, what are your thoughts on how often or what it might look like for people when they might be struggling with anxiety but they don't see that that's what it is? What, what does, how does that sometimes happen or what does that sometimes look like and you're just in your experience?
Meghan:
I think a lot of times we get used to living in this overdrive and we're just, I think we have to look at culturally too, that it's very socially acceptable to not sleep and to be really ready and to worry all the time. And you know, mom culture says it's okay to worry about your child all the time and there's a lot to worry about. So I'm sure, you know, I think it's, we have to look at how much are we playing into these kinds of cultural imperatives, but also taking a second to look at how do I want my life to look and how much in alignment is that right now? And so do I want to be sleeping more? You know, could this, could my anxiety be contributing to my lack of sleep? Or you know, do I want to feel more empowered about who I am and could my anxiety be contributing to that? So it's difficult because I think sometimes people feel like there's not really a problem. But I think sometimes people hide it a lot too because it's difficult to talk about.
Monica:
Tell us about that. And I have had a, why do you think it's hard to talk about? I agree. And then B, how do we typically hide it had, what does that look like?
Meghan:
Yeah, well I've known people who have been eight who are able to hide panic attacks and you know, while talking to someone and just be having a panic attack, it becomes, it's, it's really, um, this high functioning anxiety and I think it feeds in really well to perfectionist and people who feel like they have to be people pleasers and have this persona of perfection that it's difficult to tell anyone. And there's a lot of shame associated with it. Sure. I think because anxiety is, is in mental illness and mental distress can be stigmatizing. We don't want to talk about it, but it's really more if we start noticing it as more of, you know, not only an epidemic but just a normal part of being human.
Monica:
It feels less scary. I think that there's a lot to that too, that I have think that the mystifying of it, um, helps people to just name it, to recognize it and to accept that which is such a huge part of any journey really is just accepting it rather than warring against it.
Meghan:
Yeah. Whatever you resist persists. Right?
Monica:
Yeah. I'll know. Yeah, absolutely. That's so true.
Meghan:
You know, we can try to repress all of this and push down our anxiety and our feelings and emotions, but it's just, you know, like a Coke bottle in the water. It just, it'll pop up again and a lot of times it pops up in midlife for really good at repressing things. It'll come back out.
Monica:
That's interesting. Is that something that you see is that in mid life people that have been successfully repressing yeah. Find themselves with that sort of, that great word picture, um, that Coke bottle sort of popping up and that they can no longer deny the existence of that anxiety?
Meghan:
Yeah. You know, there's a lot of psychology that, you know, Carl Young with them kind of midlife transition and things like that. There's a lot of psychology around the midlife transition period. But I do think a part of it is, you know, this kind of releasing this need to release these cultural restraints and this need to release this perfectionism and become more of our authentic self. And so I often see people coming in and they're mid life just saying, you know, enough is enough. I'm ready. We'll just ready to go on these journeys.
Monica:
Yeah. And it's scary, but it is scary. Um, but that also sounds so hopeful and exciting that, you know, what I hear you saying, tell me if I'm getting this wrong, is that people at this certain stage of midlife are often just ready to be their authentic selves.
Meghan:
Yeah. They're just done. They're tired. Yeah. They're tired of playing the game and trying to please everyone and be someone that they're not. And that goes back to sort of what you said about anxiety being a messenger.
Monica:
In that case, the anxiety is a messenger that Hey, it might be time for you to be more free to be your authentic self.
Meghan:
Yes, exactly. And that's the scary part is that, you know, I don't want to minimize someone's symptoms and suffering, but it can also mean that something really big is on the horizon. Yeah.
Monica:
That's something that's coming up for healing. That you are ready to move into another part of your life or become more yourself.
Meghan:
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Monica:
What is important for people dealing with anxiety to know, you know, so we are both therapists and we are both, you know, in this interview saying that we are people that are, have struggled with anxiety before. You know, what would be something that if someone's listening that would be important for them to know about anxiety?
Meghan:
so if you're listening and you have anxiety, I would say that it's, we are not meant to suffer or struggle alone and that it is okay. And it is good to reach out to someone, a professional, a coach, a friend to get things moving because there's something in your body that is trying to move, you know, there's this stuck energy coming up as anxiety and it's just want, you're just needing to move, move the energy. And so first of all, hopefully they've heard that this is, you know, anxiety is, there's nothing wrong with you. You're not broken. You don't have to have this forever and it's not a life sentence, but it is a call for a restructuring of your life and for growth and healing and that, you know, we need support around that.
Meghan:
Everybody needs support in a community. And if you don't have one, it's okay to, you know, go online, do a search, find people.
Monica:
That's true. Yeah. I love that. Um, that invitation to not do it alone, right. That we really are wired for connection and so that if you are struggling with anxiety at first, simple step would be to reach out whether that be for help to someone, you know. Yeah. To an online group of support.
Meghan:
Yes. Online groups, you know, really, and I know I talk a lot about culture, but our Western culture is very individualistic. You know, we, we say you are a success because of your own autonomous ability to be a success or you are a failure because of your own, you know, and we forget all these other co these other factors and that we live in community and we're meant to be in community and there's a lot of things that contribute to our symptoms.
Monica:
It's not just because of you. What are some of the other things that might contribute to people's symptoms of anxiety? And I know it's a huge question that we obviously can't answer all today, but just a few things that might.
Meghan:
Well I think, you know, if, if we look at, I mean, let's just take social media for now. You know, that was not, um, a huge factor when we were growing up. But now that makes me sound very old. But um, yeah, so we have this constant mode of self comparison. I think that makes it really tricky. And social media as a snapshot of all the lovely things going on in the world. And it's easy to forget that. That's true. Um, social. So social media makes it hard. I think what race we are, what gender we are. Um, the gender norms and imperatives that our culture puts still on women and men.
Meghan:
It's, you know, really difficult toxic masculinity and these kinds of inherent beliefs about what it is to be a woman and, and, um, you know, sharing emotions, you know, that can play a huge factor. Our family of origin plays a huge factor. You know, who people told us that we were. Yeah, no, because I think that's huge. You know, what teacher told you that you were dumb or smart or add or perfect or an angel and how did that contribute to who you are today? You know, so it can be as simple as just somebody telling you something that gets stuck in your head.
Monica:
And I love that. You know, you said it's not just you that, that we don't become anxious or struggle with anxiety. Like a normal amount of anxiety happens for everybody. And just on a daily basis. But it doesn't become a struggle in a vacuum.
Meghan:
Right. That, that there are so many different contributing factors that lead us to where we are.
Monica:
And so our self blame is kind of a waste of time cause it's not even accurate. It's not even accurate. Right. Right. And people try to tell us that it is, but it's not. No, it's not complicated. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, you know, one of the things that I've heard you say is when you don't take care of yourself, it can manifest as anxiety. Um, and I love this for so many reasons, but I'm wondering if you could just expand on this a little bit and tell us more about that.
Meghan:
Yeah. Well, this came from my experience working with so many people who are very sensitive and empathic. And I started to notice how much caregiving of others people do and engage with is taking care of other people, other people, other people.
Meghan:
And when we neglect our physical body, you know, our vessel for walking around and doing all the things that we do and taking care of people. Um, if we neglect our spiritual body, if we neglect our mental health body, then we start fading or we develop illnesses. You know, if we don't allow ourselves to take a rest, our body will force us through, you know, getting a cold and then we have to arrest. Right? So often people who suffer with anxiety not always are, are highly sensitive in tune with other people and really love and care about other people and want to make them happier and feel better but at the expense of themselves. And so what I always tell people, especially women and moms is your mood matters. How you feel about your day and your life and yourself matters so much, way more than we, than we acknowledge.
Monica:
And with that sounds like an invitation to have permission to, to take care of your own mood.
Meghan:
Yes. Yes. Because if we don't take care of our own mood, then it trickles over into our family and friends and children. And you know, if, if we can find a way to get a little bit more centered, then we can talk with our children with more compassion, talk to ourselves with more compassion, take on the world differently, breathe through traffic differently. And it's, it's a journey and it is a process and a life practice. It's not a arrival.
Monica:
Yes. Yeah. Okay. There's so much good there. Um, I love the idea of practice. You know that again, you don't get to a healing destination and poof, anxiety's gone. Right, right. It becomes a practice of self care. So I'm hearing you say is that when we take better care of ourselves, that we are more able to, you know, combat the anxiety.
Monica:
I don't even know if combat's the right word, but choose differently or move through the anxiety.
Meghan:
Exactly.
Monica:
I love what you said too about that often, you know, what you've seen is that people who are anxious are really people that love other people. Pretty sensitive people or even highly sensitive people, which is a term that you know, people may not know about and can look up, which is I consider a superpower. And now you notice others, you care about them. Um, I think that's such a, I love how you've flipped the script there instead of anxiety being something to be ashamed about. Well, maybe it's part of the wonderful way that you're wired. I like that, you know? Yeah. Well tell us about, you know, in that same vein, this idea, this term that you've coined, the anxious impact. Define this for us. Some of the most beautiful people are anxious and paths.
Meghan:
I started to notice that the people who came to my practice, both men and women, they were all coming in and they mostly are anxious because I specialize in anxiety. But they were just these, they are these beautiful kind, deep hearted people who have a hard time navigating their emotions and other people's emotions because they feel things so deeply. So empathy means to feel into, and so empaths are able to feel into the life space of another person. So this is different from sympathy and that, you know, obviously they, it's not about feeling bad for someone that's, it's about feeling into someone. So people who are highly sensitive or highly sensitive to their surroundings, to their environment and to the people. And so they may be around other people and be able to feel into their experience and pick up their failing their, the other person's feelings of anger or frustration, sadness, and then take it on themselves.
Meghan:
And it manifests as anxiety.
Monica:
That's such an incredibly clear definition. And I would imagine if I were listening to what you just described, I would think, Oh my gosh, she just read my mail. You know, I think that so many people listening are gonna think, well, no one's ever defined that for me. You know, that, that, that there are people that walk into a room and they pick up and they feel into, as you described it so well what other people are feeling. So then, then what happens if someone that is, has some of these descriptions of an anxious empath of just these wonderful qualities. If they don't have boundaries around that and they don't understand the way they're wired, what can happen?
Meghan:
Yeah, well, they will often feel very depleted, highly anxious, depressed, exhausted. A lot of times people aren't able to go to social gatherings or situations or busy, you know, mall areas or a watch the news, you know, scroll on Facebook.
Meghan:
So it really impacts their energetic system. When somebody is highly empathic, there's almost this blurred boundary between themselves and the other. And so it's almost as if I don't know where my self ends and the other person begins because we're so tied in as one. And this can be a really great gift for people who are counselors for people or a teachers or spiritual healers. However, without understanding through self care and through intentionality that I must differentiate myself between myself and the other, but I can still lovingly, compassionately care for them. But I'm different from them.
Monica:
And that's kind of the journey we go through is how can I be different but still be empathic? And I don't think that we are often taught that, right? That, that we're taught that closeness is sameness. Right? You know, and we're not taught that we can really care and have boundaries.
Meghan:
Yeah. Nobody tells children. And when you look at children who might be struggling with anxiety or ADHD or sensory overload, you know, at school we don't talk to them about, well maybe you're wired differently. Yeah. You know, we don't even address that. And so it becomes really difficult. And I see the anxious empath manifesting differently in men and women too. Um, which has been really cool. You know, some of the men that I've worked with are who are highly empathic, can cope through drugs and alcohol, um, you know, doing other risky behaviors because the feeling is so big to them and there's not much space for men to talk about emotions and sensitivity in our culture. And so I think it's really important for anyone listening who has little boys to encourage them to talk about their feelings and to express what's going on without shaming them and just to be aware of that.
Monica:
Absolutely. I think that's such a valuable point. And so then if that's sometimes how you see manifesting in men, this sort of anxious empath, you know, makeup of a person, how do you see it manifesting in women?
Meghan:
Well besides anxiety and depression, I see it, um, over caring, over-giving feeling, you know, that sense of sameness. Like you said, feeling like if the other person is unhappy, then I'm unhappy and then I need to overdue in order to help them to recover. And many times the way that that women respond to someone else as a way that they wish someone would respond to them. So it's a call for, you know, I'm going to do, do, do, do, do for this person because I wish someone would do for me, but really it's, I wish I would do for myself. Wow. That makes sense. That's pretty pre-cleared I'm following you.
Monica:
It makes a lot of sense of where to, um, you know, unpack that. It's that when I feel, um, maybe enmeshed with other people and there's no difference between me and them, it's that, and I feel like I need to help, help, help, help, help them.
Meghan:
Yes.
Monica:
That often might be a messenger, as you said before, to listen to that. I need that.
Meghan:
Yeah. And I can even deliver that to myself. I might need that help. And that might be why I'm so fixated on helping other people. Yeah. But it's also hard to change that narrative too. It's difficult because it's just so part of your identity. It's to help and, and be the doer for other people and to put yourself laughs last. So it, it requires a lot of changing of internal narratives and some tracing back to childhood stuff which might contribute to who you are today.
Monica:
And so let's talk about that a little bit more. I think that's such an important and I don't know, hopeful thing and, and that might sound like a funny word to use that something might be hard to, you know, at that takes awhile. But I think often people get discouraged, you know, when the first swipe at understanding what's going on with them doesn't work.
Meghan:
Right. Um, that it really is a process of understanding and you're actually changing your orientation to how you relate to other people in the world. Tell us more about, you know, how that is a process and how that does take a while for people. Yeah. I think that we, well, first of all, as a culture, we seek a lot of immediate gratification. And if you, and of your anxious and of perfectionist, you're used to doing something and doing it well and doing it quickly.
Meghan:
But the reality is when we first start to do something new, we usually kind of stink at it. So it takes some time. But it also takes this distress tolerance and this ability to sit with the tension of the opposites. So to sit in this kind of gray space of, you know, I'm not really sure what I'm doing here, but I know I'm going somewhere and I'm trying to leave something else behind. And so here I am kind of in this anxious, confused state and it's really can be scary. Absolutely. So, you know, in a world of black and white, we are not used to sitting in the gray and we are not. It's so true. So it's this process of allowing ourselves to be really struggling but also seeing the glimmer of hope in the growth that's happening and the tiny steps that we do to release things that no longer serve us.
Monica:
Like some of those beliefs about that we need to or should be this kind of person. In order to be loved we have to be pleasing would be an example.
Meghan:
Exactly. Exactly. And, and, and finding those times where you notice it or you think differently about a situation that you always thought the same about, you know, taking the time to say, okay, Hmm, that's different that I'm just noticing what's going on here. And that's growth because it's easy to not see the things that we do because it's so slow moving.
Monica:
Yes. Okay. And so I just love so much what you just said. I'm, I'm actually clapping, um, is that, that noticing, um, what we are doing is growth itself. Right. And I think that that's so encouraging for people cause that's something they can do right now. Yeah. You know, any of us can take a step back and just like you said earlier, notice when do I feel good?
Meghan:
Yes. When do I not feel good? Exactly. I notice I'm feeling more anxious today and that noticing then is not just a waste of time. It's actually a separating ourselves from that anxiety and growing. Yes. The noticing is a huge step if you can, you know, even just taking a breath and saying, you know what, I took a breath where yesterday I didn't. Yeah, that's big because when we think we go to this black and white thinking, especially the anxiety of if I'm going to make a life change, I need to meditate for 30 minutes a day and I need to, you know, go exercise for an hour and it's not that big there really. If you can meditate for 30 seconds and carpool line or you can go, you know, take the stairs and extra time in your house, then that is something. Yes. And noticing that, is that the first step?
Monica:
I love it. Yes, it's, it's so that's so accessible. All right. And it's just moving in the same direction of growth and that it goes with that hopeful message that you shared that you know, it's a process and it takes time.
Meghan:
Yes, it is a process that takes time. And a lot of people listening might think, well, I don't have time and I don't want to do the thing. So you know, and also I'll tell you that there is such freedom on the other side and not even on the other side, but just, you know, a tiny step towards the other side. You know, you'll start to notice, wow, this feels really good when I breathe or this starts to feel really good, you know? Or Oh, I can talk to my daughter in a different way. If I'm more centered and it will feel good, you'll start noticing moments of feeling good and then it'll be worth it.
Monica:
Yeah. And again, that comes back to the noticing, noticing when, gosh, it felt better to take a breath and notice how I was feeling then just barrel through my anxiety and you know, and react out of that. Yes. Barreling through anxiety and reacting.
Meghan:
Yes, we do that we push, push through it. Yeah. And that doesn't end up helping us grow through the anxiety. Right. Right. And also just finding people who will listen to you and who will sit with it without trying to fix you.
Monica:
Okay. Say more about that because that's back to this. Um, really again, accessible thing that you know, you would say that someone should do if they're struggling, anxiety is to reach out, you know, um, tell us about sitting with someone and not trying to fix it. That so often when people don't know about that, they think, well that's not helpful. But is that one of the most helpful things we can do for people?
Meghan:
Yeah. You're so right. Most people think that if somebody tells me a problem, I need to fix it because that's helpful. When in reality, our truest, I believe our truest human desire is to be seen and recognized for who we are. All of our flaws, all of our messiness without somebody telling us how to fix it. And I think that should be a lesson that we teach young people, like elementary school is how to be an active listener. You know, it's basic skills that we learned in counseling, but just making eye contact and moving your head and saying, wow, that must feel really difficult. And so that's a technique that you can, you know, if you want to teach your partner this, go home and say, if you feel like your partner always tries to fix you, go home and say, I would appreciate it if you could say, wow, that sounds like it must be really frustrating and see what happens.
Meghan:
So just this simple empathic shift versus fixing it. You know, I think when we feel like we need to be fixed again, there's something wrong with us. We're broken. And that's the underlying message underneath it. And I think men in our society are typically fixers. And so sometimes, you know, um, partners of men need to have that conversation. And women too, it's not just men, and I'm certainly not downing men for this, but culturally that is the message. Yeah. Right. And so then giving ourselves the permission as listeners and asking for that and our partnerships or our friendships of, I just need you to listen and not fix.
Monica:
Asking for what we need, asking for what we need.
Meghan:
Yeah, that's, that's a big one. That's really hard.
Monica:
And recognizing what we need and asking for it is that another thing that would be important for an anxious impact is to be able to recognize what they need and then to ask for what they need.
Meghan:
Absolutely. And so in the process of beginning to kind of delineate your own boundaries and take better care of yourself, it will also require you asking for what you need. You'll need more time to go for a walk, or you'll need more time to take and get yourself off Facebook or read a book or whatever it is. And so in this, a part of it is practicing using your voice and speaking for what you need. And that's a real challenge.
Monica:
And is that, you know, one of the things that would be if someone listening identifies with the way you described an anxious empath, right? As this beautiful loving soul that you know, maybe feels a lot into. People need to know what to do with that would recognizing what they need and having boundaries around what they need and want. Would that be one of the things that they could do for themselves.
Meghan:
It is one of the things they can do. And some people might think, well, I have absolutely no idea what I need. And if that is you, then that is fine. What I would recommend is starting to begin recognizing when you feel good and when you feel bad and writing it down. Yeah. And just starting there, so writing down, you know, I'm with this person or I'm at the mall or I'm looking at Facebook for 20 minutes and I feel icky. Yeah. Write that down so you can pick up on trends and patterns. You know, if you love playing trains with your kid, but you don't like riding bikes and write that down, it doesn't matter. Try not to judge it. You're just trying to get insight into yourself to figure out who you are more deeply. And that's back to that, noticing that accessible. Other first step that anybody can do is just notice.
Meghan:
And I feel good notice when I don't feel good with compassion.
Monica:
with compassion. Yeah. I'm so glad you said that because that is, I think, the most important part. We're not saying that people should just start judging themselves. Right? Which is easy to do.
Meghan:
Yeah, sure, absolutely.
Meghan:
But that they should compassionately and lovingly just take note. Just take note. Okay. Get a journal. Write it down.
Monica:
That's good. Okay. So final question that I'm asking everyone is what is one person or event or thing, and it doesn't have to be just one. Um, but that stands out at this moment. I know there's many that has helped you become the person you are today.
Meghan:
yeah, that's such a good question. You know, I think about my parents, he sacrificed everything to put me through school. And I think about, you know, my ancestors and I think about my teachers and I think about when I learned that 90% of our serotonin is in our gut.
Meghan:
And I was angry because no one told me that. And I think about taking feminist classes and feeling angry because I didn't know all these things. And, and then I think about, you know, this, this event that I can actually tell story about. So when I wa I had my second child, I was feeling some anxiety and just really overwhelmed with my life and how everything was going and it was just so stressful and I was exhausted because neither of my kids slept. Gosh. So, um, I went to see an integrative doctor to try to see if I needed to, um, get my nutrients tested or whatever it was. And this doctor had, she has several children. She's always very calm. She's just a beautiful person. And, um, you know, it just seems like if there is someone who has it all together, gosh darn it, it's going to be her and I'm going to see what's going on.
Meghan:
So I went there and I asked, okay, so how do you like cook all these meals and how do you feed your family and keep your house clean? And you know, I just need like a rule book. I just need for you to tell me what to do because I am drowning here. So tell me, I had my notebook out, I had my pen, I was ready for her to like give me a blog or like a crockpot recipe, which I had no idea how to use by the way. And she just kind of looked at me for a long minutes probably and said, Meghan, if you don't want to do it, don't do it. And I was very frustrated because I wanted answers. I didn't want to just be told to just be and to care about my mood. And you know, a few days later I just kept thinking about that.
Meghan:
If you don't want to do it, do it. She gave me no blog recipes, no more. Dang it. Okay. So, but what that message was was that if I am going to do the dishes and I'm going to be really mad about it, because really what I want to be doing is reading a book to my child, then I shouldn't wash the dishes in that moment. Right. And I understand that in saying that, you know, there's privilege associated with it. There's things that we have to do, right core. So when it comes to situations where we might have a slight choice such as doing the dishes while being disastrous, sleep, moody or frustrated, you know, don't do it in that moment. If laundry is going to make you feel horrible in that moment, then don't do it. If you are supposed to go to a really intense cardio workout and you don't want to, then don't do it, go for a walk.
Meghan:
Instead, it's giving yourself permission to take a breath. Yeah. Take care of your mood and make a shift. Yes. And so in doing that, the change becomes internal and then that radiates out and affects that people in our family and in our community.
Monica:
I love that. It's so counterintuitive. Yeah. But it is such a giant permission slip and of there are so many questions of privilege and all these different issues that come and there are things that we all have to do, right? We all have to work. We have to pay our taxes and feed our children. And get to work. And probably many of us take care of we're caretakers, the people that are not doing well. But in that, what are those small moments even to start.
Meghan:
Exactly. Yeah. We have to go to work, we have to feed our families, we have to do that.
Meghan:
But what it is is the more we practice these little small changes, these little small shifts, those bigger things will start to feel different too. So it's finding opportunities to make those small choices of mood management in the moment to interact with your family in different ways that are lighter and softer. And in that we begin to change and then we approach work in taxes and caregiving and meal prepping and things like that differently. It's this tiny way to begin to shift your worldview.
Monica:
Yes. And would you say that it is also impart, um, connecting to your own voice? That's so often we are not taught to do that. We're not, many of us are never given the time to do that. But now as adults, even in small moments within the confines of our real life sort of connecting to, well, you know what? I don't want to do these dishes right now. Now of course they're going to need to get done. Right, but right this minute, that's more of a should.
Meghan:
exactly. It's a should. And we have to examine where are these shits coming from? You know, even the fact of I need to, you know, this message that I see here so many women say is I need to cook my children's food from scratch and make organic this and organic that. Right? And so taking a moment to say, do I really want to do this? Is this in alignment with who I am? If it is, do it. But if it's not, it's okay. You know, and giving yourself permission to be okay with being a little counter-culture. Yes, absolutely.
Monica:
And if you don't take time to notice, you'll never be able to distinguish between the shifts and then what's authentically your voice. Yes. I love that. Okay. I'm, well, I'm going to be thinking about that when I'm doing the dishes. or not.
Meghan:
Or not. Maybe have a conversation with your family and like I did, I said, you know, we all need to start doing some laundry now cause mom's not always going to do it.
Monica:
Yes, yes. Okay. Well thank you so much. I learned a lot and I know that um, everyone listening will learn a lot. He really,
Meghan:
I learned a lot being here with you. Thank you for having me.