Sarah Collins

I had the pleasure to interview Sarah Collins, MDiv, MS, APC, NCC. Some people use the term “old soul” to refer to someone who has wisdom beyond their years. When I speak with Sarah, I keep thinking of the words “timeless soul.” She carefully and thoughtfully, without making any grand black and white declarations, walks us through her unique path of working with Mother Teresa’s organization in Kolkata, India, what she has learned through many experiences about the process of death and dying, and the intersection of spiritual and mental health to her therapy practice today. We often hear people say that the more you learn in the world, the less you realize you know, which really just speaks to the true humility life experience and wisdom can bring. Sarah seems to embody that ability to hold those things together, that tension that I think wisdom leads us to - which reminds me of the definition Sarah shares that Mother Teresa gives of humility, “a right understanding of yourself.” Not too high or too low. Throughout our discussion, Sarah weaves in her own insights, while always making room for others, a generous way of being in the world.

Sarah’s path to becoming a therapist has been shaped by various career and life experiences. Following her graduation from college, Sarah’s passion for Mother Teresa’s work led her to Kolkata, India where she volunteered in The Home for the Dying, a hospice house that provides end-of-life care for individuals with limited resources.

This formative experience profoundly influenced Sarah’s personal and professional identity. She went on to earn an M.Div. from Candler School of Theology at Emory University and worked as a Board Certified Chaplain (BCC) in the fields of palliative care, hospice, and mental health. Through her work in these diverse contexts, Sarah developed a passionate interest in the relationship between spiritual health and mental health. While continuing her work in chaplaincy, she studied Clinical Mental Health Counseling and graduated with an M.S. from Mercer University. Sarah’s work in the mental health field has included experience in both individual counseling and group counseling. 

Sarah works as a counselor with Cultivate Counseling, specializing in working with women on identity formation and development, developing healthy relationships with others and self, life stage transitions, and grief and loss.

I feel confident you will enjoy our conversation as much as I did. Sarah leads with her warmth, kindness, and wisdom.

LISTEN HERE:

(Transcript of audio)

Monica: Well, I'm so excited to talk to you today just about, you know, your whole story and we get to be therapy neighbors side by side, but I don't actually, I haven't actually gotten to here, you know, why you're a therapist and why you specialize in what you do. And so I'd love to just kind of start with, you know, what your specialties are.

Sarah: Yes, well I, I think I've kind of come to my specialty maybe, maybe as we all do, but kind of that lived experience. In some ways really purposefully knowing and sorta seeing down the road from far away. Oh, those things are things that are interests and things that I'm moving towards really intentionally. And I think other things sort of find in a way. And so to, I guess my primary specialties would be one spiritual concerns. And that I think sort of for me has evolved out of, you know, personally, but also professionally, being in the field of chaplaincy prior to my work counseling. And also, um, part of my training being theological in nature. And so I'm really, really interested in working with people as they're interested in it. This is something that, you know, I can, work with people and the topics, spirituality and faith and religion can never come up.

Which is good and wonderful in and of itself. But the, for those who are interested in looking at how does my spirituality inform wellness, how does it inform my emotional or mental health? Those are things that I really love to work on with people. And then also given my, you know, my past career experience in, in the end of life care, I work with quite a few people around grief and loss as well. And so that's something I love to look at with people. And not just when a limited to when grief and loss that emerges from an experience of gas or drying, but, but also all the ways we experience grief and loss in our lives.

Monica: Yeah. Meaning that the loss of a relationship, if someone is still alive, that that can be grief and loss of trying to process that. Is that what you

Sarah: Yes, absolutely. I think that's such a good way of putting it and, um, you know, anything that would have somebody say, this is not the way that I thought life was going to turn out, kind of how I would turn that, whether that be, you know, I lost a job and I'm recognizing that my identity has felt really intertwined with that. Um, I think it touches so many different areas of our lives.

Monica: I just love the way you said that and “this is not the way that I thought life would turn out.” And I feel like that takes an enormous amount of courage. And I think that's what really struck me about your specialties is that they're, um, they're not lightweights, you know, they're courageous ones, spiritual concerns and grief and loss and it sort of, you know, walking into that dark forest with people of this is not how I thought this would go. Right?

Sarah: Right, right. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Monica: And I'm, I'm just, just about the spiritual concerns. Would you say that you work with people too who are maybe, you know, have had injuries in their faith history or had, um, you know, hard things happen, are grappling with questions about it.

Sarah: Yes, absolutely, and I think that, I'm so glad you asked that question because I think sometimes that has been a little bit of a barrier at times for people finding their way to me. I’ve heard that before, at times people say, well, this person has been really injured, um, in their experience of faith or spirituality. And so, um, you know, I'm not gonna send them to somebody like Sarah who works with this kind of with this kind of topic. And I can understand that.

And I think for some people that is certainly the right path, you know, knowing that, that they can be kind of insulated from that in their process. But for other people, I think there is a desire to talk with somebody who, who's willing to engage those questions, um, who's willing to acknowledge and validate the fact that we do experience, wounds, in places that are supposed to be safe and, and sometimes are not.

And so I am hopeful that that is something that people, that people know that, um, if there's somebody who, who specializes in this area, we are just here for people who feel like their faith and spirituality has been, you know, a purely cognitive experience. I think for most of us, if we're honest, there's a lot that we have to kind of sift through and particularly as we grow and begin to sort of own what, what feels like it's, it's really our’s then what we really want hit internalized going forward.

Monica: Yeah. And it seems like there's even crossover then, right, between the grief and loss work and the spiritual concerns, right? That there is sometimes grief for you know, that what you have experienced and you know, in a spiritual context and then hope for finding something new and healing.

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so true. You're exactly right that there is a lot of grief interwoven, in that sort of spiritual journey and what we experienced there. And the hope that’s also there too.

Monica: Well then tell me, you know, I know that you worked in India, right? Is that, um, with Mother Teresa's organization and this is just not the average thing that, you know, most of us do after college and, and so it's, it's so interesting and I would just love to hear, um, you know, how did you, how did this even come on your radar? Um, and then, and then how did you get the courage to follow through with that? Could just walk us through kind of like, what was that process like for you?

Sarah: Sure. Yeah. When I was growing up, my mom worked as a biology teacher at a Catholic high school here in the Atlanta area. And, um, and just as a result of that connection, I ended up attending school there and read about a lot of, and learned about a lot of, you know, prominent Catholic figures and one of those being Mother Teresa. And I'd be just was, I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but I was just really taken with her and her work and I for a period of time just kind of read everything I could get my hands on. Um, you know, that had been written about her and I just remember being so, I guess struck by the fact that her life and her work was really marked by doing rather than by speaking because, you know, I think in our culture, a lot of religious figures are preachers or writers and they, and that is a beautiful offering in and of itself.

But I, I think there is sometimes more of an emphasis on that than on kind of “here is how I am known by my work and by my service in the world.” And I just remember feeling like that was something that she really seemed to capture. So, I felt really interested in learning more about her. And I found myself continuing to read about the Home for the Dying that she established in Kolkata, which was the first of the kind of homes or centers that she, that she established when she sort of going out on her own and got started. And she would write about how that was kind of a heart’s home and, um, that she would work from there. She had a little deck that was set up in the middle of the hospice house and she would do her correspondence and things like that.

And I just remember thinking, well, if I could ever just go and walk where she walked and see this place that will be so formative. And somebody said, well, you know, do you think you'll ever do that? And I said, well, maybe, you know, one day if I can go in retirement or something like that. And then, um, our school, my college had a January term and I started looking into what would it look like for me to go just for this month. And I, I don't know if it was really courage or more just being kind of naive, but I was like, sure, this is a great idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I did and I just had this, um, really, uh, formative experience.

And I met a woman there named Marusha who was living as this person long into her career and adulthood. She would live about half of the year in Spain and then half of the year in Kolkata and she worked work. And then she would come and live in Kolkata and volunteer and she really took me under her wing. And I remember during that short month I was there, she checked me. He knows there, I think you're going to come back. Um, I think you're going to come back and work. And I had already been thinking about it but had not really sort of uttered that aloud anymore. And I was all set to go to graduate school immediately following college. And this is kind of not in the plan. And, um, and really it was just her saying that I think, um, gave me the courage to kind of grasp what I had already been sort of wondering about. I'm hoping it out. And then I returned following college for another seven months or so kind of from the fall to the spring.

Monica: Wow. And so her saying that out loud was kind of what helps you get the courage to do that? Is that kind of what you're saying too?

Sarah: Yes. Yeah. And you know, I will say, I think at that time when I was in that stage of my life, I felt like this was sort of magic, you know, here I am, you know, and she has kind of spoken these words over, over my experience and, it felt like this really magical thing. And I think I still feel that way about it, but I think I recognize to some of that sense of, you know, with those things that are kind of growing within us, or are already beginning. Just stir within us, that when somebody else speaks to those it gives us the courage to really, um, to really give them more life and put action behind them. And so I'm really grateful for her and I do feel like there's still this very magical aspect of that. And I'm so grateful for that part of my story. And I think at the time I thought it was all very external and now I'm beginning to sort of recognize the ways in which those people that are external to us invite us to sort of listening more to what's going on already internally too.

Monica: Wow. I love that, Sarah. That's so powerful. Um, so what did you exactly do at the Home for the Dying, you know, if you were to walk us through, what would a day look like there for you and what do you think you learned about compassion and about grief? Um, or maybe those aren't the words, you know, what did you, you know, what would a day like their look like and what did you learn?

Sarah: Yes. So, um, you know, I think even as I was about to, you know, do this volunteer work, I thought, oh my goodness, this just seems like it could be this really intense experience. And one thing that I often tell people you now is everything that I did at the Home for the Dying were really things a child could do, um, they were very simple task and work half that weren't just sort of um, caring for all of the things that I think makeup our human needs. So we would prepare food for the day, plate it, serve it to people who needed assistance with, um, with getting, we would, help people with their laundry.

And Mother Teresa was very big on not using technology, when it was not needed, or I guess maybe the way she would put it possibly would be when it impeded you human connections. For example, we would kind of wring out the blankets because we needed two people to do that. So one person would take one end and one person will take the other end then we would twist and all the water would come out. So, you know, sometimes people will be very critical, particularly people from the Western world. The common saying, you know, all of this work be done much more quickly with sort of industrial washers and dryers and the sisters. What I think, and there was going to say, um, but that that does not then require two people to work together to do this. So it was, it was really simple work I think is kind of the point, and, and it was, also, the emphasis was allowing people to have as much independence as they could for as long as they could. So you would only help someone eat if they needed help eating. You would only help someone use the bathroom if they needed help using the bathroom. Otherwise, people, were maintaining as much independence the patients as they, as they could for as long if they could.

And so I remember a really powerful kind of part of that experience was the sisters who ran the, the house at that time would say, “we don't need you. but it's very important that you're here nonetheless.” And this idea of that, you know, you are not indispensable and if you can't come on a day, that's okay. The work will go on without you. And we don't say this to kind of minimize the importance of you being here because it's very important that you're contributing. But just to say, there is this message that I think is kind of counter cultural to the Western world, which is that you are not indispensable. The way we structure this work is so that someone else can pick it up and he can't do it. Um, and I think that's a really healthy number. And this one was really good to hear in my early 20’s.

Monica: Yeah. I mean it's just counter to everything in your early twenties, especially in like, I mean, you were maybe not that young, but I mean the Selfie age, you know, it just feels so countercultural to all of that, that you're not indispensable, but it's still important for you to serve and to connect and to be here. That's, that's holding sort of two things that we often think are opposite here, right? That I have to be so important and that's how I'll help. But really you're not, you're, you, you are one among many, but what you're doing is still important. That's really amazing.

Sarah: Yeah, it was a really, I think helpful tension to hold, you know, not minimizing at all and very, very the still linked human dignity. And I think, almost more so in a way, you know, like we value, we value you so much that we want you to know your right place. I think, you know, Mother Teresa, talked about humility as having a right understanding of yourself. Not a low understanding of yourself, but a right understanding of yourself. Um, in that, you know, it is important for you to care for yourself and to take time away if you need it. Um, it is important that you're here and the work can go on without you.

Monica: Wow. Wow. How do you think, you know, um, that has played into your work as a therapist? Um, it's a very, it's a very unique job that I think, sometimes can be confusing for people. And so this idea that we're not indispensable, there are many, but what you're doing today and now is important. How do you think that that's played into sort of seeing yourself in your role that you play in, in these individual and group therapy experiences you're doing? Does that make sense?

Sarah: Yeah, I think in any helping profession there can be the temptation to sort of, enter into this role of being indispensable or the only one who can provide, a certain know, service or, um, or no, the only person who can, who can help. And I think, um, that message is one that can be kind of seductive in a way, but it can also be this crushing weight and untrue. So I think think that, that, that is a good reminder and I think it's, it's one that, at least in my experience, you know, that learning it once just didn't seem like enough. You have to sort of stay connected to that in some way, whether that be through like having a lot of colleagues that you trust in the field. You know, about kind of the work that they're doing and can stay connected to, um, to them as resources and referral sources and things like that.

But it can be helpful too, and then empowering the people that we're working with. Because if I truly believe that I am not the one who holds the answer, then I can empower you to find your answer. If I believe that, um, if I believe that it's important for me to be able to step away and take time for myself, then I can empower you to do the same too. So I think that's knowledge for ourselves as helping professionals, helps us to empower the people that we're working with to grasp on to those that, that same truth.

Monica: Absolutely. So well said, Sarah. Wow. So then after, after Calcutta, you did some work with hospice if I've, if I'm getting that right?

Sarah: Yes.

Monica: Didn't hospice come after Calcutta and was there a reason why?

Sarah: Yeah. So, you know, in, in Calcutta I had this sense of kind of what next and being really far from home at that time. I recognized in myself just a provider to um, go back home and be kind of close to what I knew, um, after that time. And so I moved back to Atlanta and I had throughout my life been really fortunate to have a lot of mentors in my life. Many of them in the field of ministry, and many of them women and in fact many of them, um, what kind of the first women ministers that they knew. And I think, you know, many of them with wished somebody had said to them you could be a minister because many of them were kind of forging that path on their own and didn't have that. And so growing up I had la plethora of voices around me that said, you could be a minister, which was really I think a fortunate thing in my life.

And I think it is part of what contributed to my past being a little more roundabout because I think I really thought, okay, I need to kind of step into this. So I went to seminary or divinity school following, my time in Calcutta. I think looking back now, partly because of those voices that said, you know, who could go into the ministry, but also partly because I really wanted something familiar at that time. And so going back home and going back to school felt like, okay, this next step makes sense. So I, I'm kind of immediately felt like, well, I have this connection to end of life care. I'd really like to see what that looks like in the Western world. I always sort of knew that I was not probably go into a sort of traditional ministry role in the church from the very beginning, began looking at what might be there from the um, sort of non traditionally. And so I, moved into chaplaincy from there and I worked primarily in hospice and palliative care. And in fact, did that work all the way through counseling school as well.

Monica: What did you learn about? One of the things I wanted to ask you about since I feel like, more than the average person your age professionally, you've had an astounding amount of work around grief and around end of life care. And I don't think that that's the average person’s or even therapists, beginnings of work. What do you think that you learned about grief or about kind of how our culture interacts with grief from all this experience?

Sarah: Yeah, I love that question. I think, I feel like I have learned the ways in which we are really insulated from grief in our culture. And certainly this is not a criticism of the way that it's I guess, handled, although I think it makes things harder than they have to be. But I have noticed even in, in at least certain pockets of our western culture I know that's not this sort of universal term and that our culture is made up of quite a few cultures, but in certain pockets of that, I think I noticed more and more that at funerals now, there may not be a casket or any representation of the person who has died or it might be called, um, only a celebration of life.

And again, these are not criticisms because I think they are what they are. And I think the more disconnected we get from this is what the process of death and dying looks like. This is really how universal grief is, I think the more it becomes hard for us to accompany one another in our brief. And I think that ultimately, it makes sense to me why we would want to do that. I think technology allows us to do that in more and more ways. Even though it's a universal process, it's one that's full of suffering and in some ways, and I think of course our natural desire is to want to put distance between ourselves and that, that I think then everyone experiences grief everyone experiences lost and we become really frightened of how do I accompany this other person in?

That's because, you know, I have been in a system that insulates me from this and I, I don't quite know how to engage around this. Um, so that's something that feels to me, um, like a growing issue. And I think at times, even though people who are grieving can be seen as sort of faithless or hopeless, and I think, you know, the opposite is true. You know, I think Glennon Doyle is the one who said that “grief is the receipt that we have for love,” And again, Megan Devine, who has written a lot on grief that I really appreciate. She says, “grief is love in it’s wildest form.” And I think there's a way in which after we lose someone, and I know if death and dying is not the only way that we experience grief, but it is a major one. And, um, I think that after we've lost someone, grief is the love that we still have available to us to experience in a way. And I think when we're insulated from that, it ultimately does us a disservice.

Monica: And you made a great point that there are even in our western culture, so many different cultures and I can only imagine how many different cultures you've perhaps encountered or doing your work that you did in India, and doing hospice care. And I know it's too big of a question, especially for today, to ask about grief across different cultures. Um, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. Now I'm not going to ask it anyway, but I'm just curious for you, how much did you see that, um, you know, the difference in cultural expressions of grief for the difference in this idea of insulating from grief? Or was that not something that you ran into? Do you see what I mean?

Sarah: I do, yes. And I will, you know, I will say that I am no, I only experienced a slice of sure up life. And so, so I know that I am certainly not an expert or the most knowledgeable on that. Um, but what I will say is I think, um, I think one thing that I came away with is, you know, when I compare the experience that I had, um, at the Home for the Dying, which was admittedly a very low technology, um, place where I was volunteering for intentional reasons, with very, very good care, but also not all that, um, you know, Calcutta had to offer probably technologically. But then when I compare that to my experience with hospice here, yeah. Um, I certainly cannot see it as kind of this either or. But what I will say in, in terms of even seeing, you know, family members of mine progressed through illness. I think one thing that I've learned, if the technology does not always provide relief, in the death and dying process.

I think, I think certainly I can, but I guess what I'm saying is that maybe this may be oversimplifying it, but I guess I'm a good death can be experienced, I think in a lot of different ways. And I think sometimes the assumption is the more technology and medical care and intervention that I have, the better this is going to be for me and for my family members. And I think, um, that may be true for some people, but I think it isn't for everyone. And so I think one thing that, that I've learned from that process is it's really important for people to be able to listen carefully to their experience and to their needs. Yeah. And figure out, um, how do I engage this process in a way that, um, allows me to live as I’m dying. That allows me to be in touch with my values, um, that allows me the most wellbeing. Sometimes that looks like sort of getting off of that treadmill that we can get on. And, um, in terms of medicine and then for other people, that's, that's very much not the case. But I guess I just learned I'm pretty complicated.

Monica: Okay. Like I said before we did this, I know I have too many questions for you. Um, and I just love hearing your perspective on things. You have such a thoughtful, careful way of interacting with so many hard topics. So I will say, I that I was right. We, I have, I have like so many more questions than we have time for, but I do want to get to two more questions.

And one is, you know, what, what we've started on at the beginning is your passion about the relationship between spiritual and mental health. Um, and I would just love to hear a little bit more about why that is so important to you. We've talked a little bit about your experience with grief and loss, um, professionally and volunteering. Um, and you know, a tiny, tiny touch on that you’ve been through that personally, but just this idea of spiritual and mental health going together. And why do you think this is so important for you and for all of us?

Sarah: Yeah, I think those are the words I would use for sure. I think, um, you know, and I think it matters how we, how we identify what spirituality means because I know not everyone is comfortable, you know, to say spirituality, or spiritual health is important for all of us. I'm not sure that's the thing that everyone would agree with.

Monica: You’re absolutely right.

Sarah: Rather, I think that when we look at spirituality as being that which connects you, that which provides meaning for you, hopefully that allows people to sort of connect with, with, with that version of what that, what that word means or can mean. And so I think, um, I think, yeah, when, when I consider spirituality to be that, which is sort of connecting force that which creates meaning. Um, I think yes, there is such a type of tone, um, a life of meaning and our mental health. Um, however, we would define that in our emotional health. And, um, I think where my passion for this, perhaps not started but, but definitely got really entrenched was working in mental health treatment and I was not anybody's primary therapist in that setting. I was, I was kind of supplementing people work with their primary therapist when I continued to find was people emotional and mental health concerns, often were mirrored by their spiritual health concerns.

So for example, um, if someone came to me and was sharing that they felt really deeply abandoned by their higher power, often that was a person who was experiencing a sense of abandonment in their interpersonal relationships as well. Um, or if somebody was sharing with me that they felt unlovable, often that sense of feeling unlovable, extended to their sense of I feel unlovable by my higher power. Um, and so I think that there is so much, um, connection and so much that is interwoven between how we're experiencing our spiritual health and how we're experiencing mental health, emotional health, relational health. And I, I think there's a lot of hope in that because I really believe that accessing health in one of those areas has a positive impact on the other areas. So I am a believer that working on our mental health is or can be a spiritual practice because I do believe that it has a positive impact typically on our spiritual health. Um, and vice versa. I know that it's important to be doing intentional work in each of those. That's certainly not me saying that doing only one piece of that is enough to, to capture all of that. But, rather that, I'm hopeful that doing the work in one area positively impacts another area because I do think we're whole and I don't think we're compartmentalized. So, um, so yeah, I, I think that that's where some of that passion began to really get rooted and it's something that really excites me.

Monica: Yeah. I can hear that in your voice. And I think it's something that we underestimate. And it sounds like it's something that sort of jumped out at you and you jumped is too dramatic of a word, but something that sort of started to emerge for you as you know, a connection that can really bring hope and healing to people.

Sarah: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Monica: And I'm wanting to ask you one last question that I've been asking everyone that's just what is one unexpected person or thing or event, um, that you think contributed to you becoming who you are today?

Sarah: Yeah, that is such a good question. I love that question. I would say, I don't know how unexpected that is. Um, but for me, when I consider, how am I showing up in a world today, what's contributed to that? Um, I often think about my relationship with my grandmother, my mom's mom, and she was just somebody who I think from the beginning really saw me. She was kind of my person. And, um, just a really incredible woman, very strong, very resilient. Um, but I think also just, um, consistently seeing and knowing me and having, I think just those eyes truly, to not see who she wanted me to be, or who she thought I should be, but they're really who I was. And I think that, um, that steadiness and consistency really helped me to be who I was. Even before she passed away, I remember she told a bunch of people, um, in her hospital room one time when I was, “Sarah is going to be a chaplain.”

And that was long before I ever had the sense that I would be a chaplain. And in fact at that time in my sort of young person, um, pride maybe, I don't know, I sort of thought like, okay, that's not quite right. And then of course, years later I was thinking, well, she got that right too. And so I just think of her as being sort of the kind of person that I want to be. Just a real model for the kind of person and woman, um, and friend and family member that I would like to be. I sort of aspire to her. So she has been really formative.

Monica: That's sort of steady person that sees people for who they actually are.

Sarah: Yes

Monica: Love that you said that. She really saw me and she was my person. That's so beautiful.

Sarah: Yeah, I love that question, Monica. It’s a really good one. To think about what really makes us who we are.

Monica: Yeah. Cause there's so many things. Yeah. Well thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. And I mean, I just feel like you are, um, you know, some people use the word old soul. I just feel like you're a timeless soul. Like there's just so much in there and I'm, and it's clear how much you intentionally interact, um, you know, with your life. And I just, I love hearing all the, all of that. Thank you.

Sarah: So grateful that you asked me to take part in this. I feel really, um, I feel like it’s a gift, and I think it's, um, I think one of the hardest things to do in life is to ask good questions. I think it's much easier to come up with answers sort of in the way that our world is set up. So I really, I'm grateful for, for you and your questions and helping me to sort think through some of these things for myself as well. So I, um, I'm grateful for that thanks so much.

Monica: Sure. Thank you so much.