Kate Ferguson
The combination of expertise and approachability is one of my favorite things when I come across it in a person. I think the best application of knowledge brings us closer to one another, not further apart. This is my experience of Kate Ferguson. Kate is one of the funniest people I know, and one of the deepest thinkers. It’s not easy to do both, or to be able to switch between both so fluidly and easily. And yet she does. Kate is a therapist’s therapist, meaning she gets excited about things only therapists might get excited about, like theories and techniques, and she is constantly studying and training and wanting to grow in knowledge and skill. And she is also a business woman, and runs her own therapy practice, Kate Ferguson and Associates. Kate is a champion of women and people in her way of working, and in her way of being. In our interview we touch on how her “reluctant advocacy,” has shaped her specialties and focus. It is a compelling story. Kate also shares with us her wisdom and perspective on Reproductive Mental Health (how this became a specialty for her), as well as working mothers, and the rise of problem drinking in women and its effects. This interview was so fun, and is so full of wisdom and insights, I am excited to share it with you.
Kate is a Licensed Professional Counselor with a private practice in Atlanta, GA. She has a BA from the University of Georgia, and an MA in Community Counseling from UNC, Charlotte. Kate has specialized training in working with women who are experiencing depression and anxiety related to infertility, pregnancy loss, pregnancy and childbirth. She is a a Gottman Certified Bringing Baby Home Educator, an alumni of Postpartum Support International’s components of care, and consults with, as well as teaches for Mental Health America of GA’s Project Healthy Moms.
Kate utilizes Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT), client centered therapy and interpersonal therapy to support individuals in pursuing their personal growth, finding their own answers and their own balance in life. Kate works with women seeking to heal, grow, succeed, strengthen their relationships and be authentic to themselves and those around them. She enjoys working with anxiety, depression, OCD, trauma, and identifying and resolving how someone’s past may be unconsciously impacting their day-to-day life. She also enjoys working with the problem drinker in recovery, and with the loved ones of problem drinkers.
Kate gives lectures and workshops related to mothering, perinatal mood disorders and women’s issues – especially work/life balance and working inside the home after career. And her personal and professional writing has been featured in Atlanta Parent Magazine, on PostpartumProgress.com and in national and regional poetry magazines.
Enjoy this interview!
LISTEN HERE:
(Transcript of audio)
Monica:
Okay. Well I would, I would love to introduce you as, you know, full disclosure, one of my dear friends and actually one of the funniest people I know, um, which is really hard to do as a therapist. I feel like, you know, when you, when you do such a serious job, you walk that line of being really funny and um, really deep, really easily. And not a lot of us can do that. And one of the things that I love about you is I always hear people say this about writers. You know, someone's a writer's writer and I don't know what that means exactly, but I do know that you're a therapist's, therapist who know you just love to talk and get into the details and talk about the theories.
Monica:
And we've had coffees about talking about the new theory that we're into. Um, and you're also a business woman and you run your own therapy practice and employ your own therapists. And, and one of my favorite memories of you, which I don't know if you remember this or not, but many lives ago, we were both at the same counseling center and I was re entering the counseling field and it was an awkward reentry and you welcomed me so intentionally, you just went out of your way to welcome me. And I feel like this is sort of a, all of this plays into my experience of you kind of of who you are as a person. You're sort of a champion of women. Um, and I, and I love that about you and I'm kind of wanting to give a little intro of my experience of you, um, before we hear kind of your intro of you and, and, and who you are professionally and personally. You could just tell us just a little bit about that.
Kate:
Well first, let me just say, that I am crying. That is the nicest intro.
Monica:
It's all just true about you. That's just, I mean, and it's one little slice
Kate:
is that is true. I'm just, if I get hit by a bus later, just like, say that at my funeral. I'm good. I'm good. Like check those boxes. Yes.
Monica:
Oh, good. Well, tell us a little bit about yourself, you know, personally and professionally what you specialize in.
Kate:
Yes. Okay. So, um, I, and I'm, I'm drinking my coffee. I only the people listening knew that the up to this, I'm sorry, it was getting our stuff together. It's hilarious
Monica:
Which is what we're going to talk about too. So I think it's, it's relevant, you know, all the different, um, things that block us as working moms, all the different problems from actually connecting. So yes. Yeah, it's rare. It's rare to have a few minutes.
Kate:
I know. I'm so glad. But, um, okay. So a little bit about me personally. Um, I'm married to Alex who's real cute. Um, and Oh my gosh, I turned my things off on my phone, but it's buzzing. Did you hear that? Another thing about me personally is I knew nothing about technology, so it shows, oh, I mean I need a Mark. Um, so, um, okay, so married to Alex, we have four children and a dog. Um, and you know, we kind of make it our aim to try to live a simple life in the midst of, you know, living in, working for us in the heart of Buckhead, which is kind of a thing in and of itself. Um, and you know, I'm kind of a of a boring person in a personal life. I like to read, I like to listen to podcasts. Um, I like to go to bed at nine. That's my jam. Like to squeeze in some exercise and that's me personally, I don't know if I'm forgetting something.
Monica:
Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then what do you specialize in professionally?
Kate:
Yeah, so professionally I work only with women. Um, and individuals. I, I wonder down the road about couples and things like that, but that'll be when my kids are older. But right now I work with, um, exclusively it was women, um, women over 25. I have, uh, a long interest in training and reproductive mental health. Um, which, you know, it's so funny to tell you these things when you know them
Monica:
I know, but some people don't know what some people don't know you as well as I do, but also people don't know what reproductive mental health is. And I'm, I'm over here just so you know, I'm trying not to active, listen as much with two therapists talking, I'm desperate to say "mmhhhh" every five seconds, but I'm really trying not to. And so if I, if you hear more quiet than you would normally for me, it's because I'm really trying to not be as active of a listener, but I just love giving feedback with my "mmmhmm"s back. But what, what is reproductive mental health? You know, for people who don't know what it is, I know what it is, but I also don't specialize in it. So what exactly does that mean? You know, it's, it's all for women. Who Do you see?
Kate:
So I see, um, you know, so I will say that it's about half and half. It's half reproductive mental health, which I'll tell you about. And half, um, women older. Most of my clients are mothers, if that makes sense. Yeah. Um, but the, the reproductive mental health is the mental health all around. Um, uh, trying to grow a family, deciding maybe not to grow a family. Um, uh, the, the hiccups and hurdles related to becoming pregnant, you know, infertility, miscarriage, stillbirth. Um, then going into, uh, the pregnancy period and, um, or you know, not being able to become pregnant adoption, you know, all of that. And then also, you know, depression, anxiety with onset and pregnancy. And then for me, I consider reproductive mental house to go to extend that out into the first year that a child joins a family, whether it's by adoption or surrogacy or, um, you know, typical delivery situation. So that's what I consider to be reproductive mental health. Um, and then after a year postpartum or post child joining a family act, that's when I kind of feel like we're into like the mother motherhood zone. Just, but even that's kind of gray. Yeah. Yeah. Explain. Um, if you have untreated postpartum depression, then you might have a two year old and still be depressed, you know?
Monica:
Absolutely, yeah. And I, and I think we underestimate how much these things are affecting so many women in so many of the women we know people are, I feel like generally not as educated as it as we should be. And I want to get to that in one minute, but first I'm wondering why, you know, and I know that this isn't all the work you do, it's one of your main specialties, but why, why this work? Why did you think, yes, if that is what I really want to specialize in, I feel drawn to that.
Kate:
Yeah such a good question. Well, so it's interesting when I look back on it, uh, it's so interesting the way I think we intuit things so... Way back in Grad school, you know, when we, you know, you have to put together those groups and blah, blah, blah, so this is in Grad school before internship, I, for whatever reason, put together a, uh, Rogerian and process group for miscarriage. Like totally random was not even know it was. I wanted to have kids yet, but that was just an interesting, then I worked in it in a jail and it was, I worked in jails, I wanted to work with women and it was the place to have exclusively women clients and then worked in the women's jail. And I don't know if I told you this before, but I would see these women come in and one woman in particular, she's walking down the hall and her breasts were leaking breastmilk.
Kate:
They didn't have a pump for her. They didn't have, you know, obviously she'd been separated from an infant. And that like seared itself in my brain. So then in the jail I was kind of advocating for it, you know, making sure we had hand pumps, making sure that there's women came into the counseling centers to understand what was going on in their lives. And I just started seeing, well anymore for that. Right. Okay. I'm taking forever. But I love women and women's issues and this issue of re reproductive mental health is one of the few things that is exclusive to women. And yet it wasn't in the curriculum for like therapy for women.
Kate:
So that happened. And then, and then, so that's kind of like, wait you this, what does that 12, 15 years ago or something. And then, um, my oldest child is 10, um, you know, come to come to pass that when I gave birth to her, I had terrible postpartum anxiety and depression, um, with a little OCD sprinkled in.
Kate:
And I went to my midwife, this was in North Carolina, went to my midwife, went to my OB and to two therapists and none of them knew what was wrong with me, had language for, it was on with me. I had to self diagnose and self research and, and I myself was a licensed clinician at that point. So, um, so that's, yeah, so the force of that is when I really, you know, there's an organization Postpartum Support International on, I googled where their next training was and it was an Indianapolis. I was living in Charlotte and I was like, whelp! Gettin on a plane
Monica:
Wow, that sounds like you, and it sounds like you, I don't think I realized how much, and I'm not surprised knowing you what I was saying at the beginning. You're a champion of women. When I think about you, um, how much that your specialty in this came from an advocacy place, advocacy of the women in the jail that you're working with, advocacy of your own journey that you went through and there was no one yourself a licensed therapist, these therapists and midwives and doctors, nobody could really, at that point, I'm sure they were trying to, but they couldn't help you. They didn't know what was wrong and that, and so that, it sounds like those, all those things together, you know, bore this passion or commitment, which we'll get to those words later, um, for this area.
Kate:
Yeah, it's true. And I will tell you, it's so funny. You're exactly right. I probably am an advocate, but I was like the people to know that I am the most reluctant advocate. I don't want, I want to be a chill Jill and have no drama and, you know, be calm. And unfortunately I just noticed these things and then I'm like, oh Dang it...
Monica:
Gotta do something about.
Kate:
Yeah, gotta do something about this, what's with the dripping milk!
Monica:
And so, you know, with that sort of mindset and how much do you think that we, and this is uh, this is too big of a question for one question, but I'm going to squeeze it in a little bit anyway. How much do you think we underestimate, you know, this, you know, your own experience of the, the lack of advocacy and support in the jail and then you just as a young mom who, you know, had opportunities and care, you know, at your disposal and there still was not the proper care, um, these two extremes. Right? How much do you think that we underestimate and don't prioritize as a society, um, reproductive mental health. And do you, and have you seen that change at all over your career?
Kate:
Yes. What a great question. So, um, I think we, you know, I love research and statistics. We know at least one in eight women, and now I'm going to speak here just about perinatal mood disorders, right? Depression really into pregnancy and postpartum. This doesn't even include if you're struggling with infertility, if you, you know, this whole other section, it is so broad, but it's kind of narrowing into PMAD, perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. We know that at least one in eight women, um, experience PMAD during pregnancy or postpartum. And so much of that is self reported that, you know, I suspect the number is much higher. I hope I answer all this.
Monica:
That's an astoundingly high number though. I mean it really is. It is the general public. I mean I didn't know that number and I'm in the field not in your specialty, but I don't think that that number is well known. One in eight.
Kate:
It is not, it is the number one complication of pregnancy and childbirth and not to be dark, but death by suicide is in the first year of postpartum is the second leading cause of death for women in the year after they give birth. Um, so you know, it's very significant. I know. I am happy to report that. Um, so, you know, since I first started getting interested in this and working on this, there is a change. I mean, just last week Sage pharmaceuticals out of Boston came out with their postpartum, um, anxiety and depression treatment. It's an IV treatment and it hit all the news and it was really rewarding to me. I actually have been kind of a, in communication with them for a couple of years. Like I have nothing to do with what they've done and I was too busy and couldn't funneled them clients. And I don't want to overstate it anyway, my involvement. But, um, but it was, yeah, it was rewarding to me that my inbox was flooded from clients and friends of, you know, this news coming out. So, yeah.
Monica:
And so, so tell us what, what exactly was that, that the medicine that they came out with and, and how much of it, you know, of a stigma, did that break, you know, that we're going to actually talk about this and this is going to be news and we're going to treat this?
Kate:
So you know, this such a great question. I, so I definitely kind of answering that in your previous question. I definitely see progress. This came out last week. I'm not sure what it will do, you know, to break the stigma, but I know that it made news and it is seen and deemed important to treat women earlier. And I was heartened to see some of the news explaining in a more accurate way why it's important. Now, PPD or things like that are always misunderstood and misreported, which is so hard. But there is, there is still a huge stigma. Um, there is, there is still so far to go, but there has been progress and I hope I answered the question.
Monica:
Yes, absolutely, I layered like five in there. Um, okay. But, so, you know, what do you wish, as someone who specialize in this field, who has been a reluctant advocate, who has seen some change, um, what do you wish that, um, women who aren't being treated, um, but need to be treated, what do you wish that they knew? Um, what, what would you say to those women?
Kate:
Yes. Oh Gosh. Well two things come to mind. The first thing is, what you're experiencing is a real medical condition and, and you can be treated and you can feel better and it's not your fault, you know, just like it's not your fault if you have gestational diabetes or, um, you know, you need stitches because you stepped on glass. These just...
Monica:
Something is happening in your body.
Kate:
Yeah. It's the most, it's the time of the most dramatic changes to a woman's brain. Um, which also was an article that I was so glad to see you run a couple of months ago. So again, there is this shift in conversation. Yeah. Um, and the second thing, and I've thought about this a lot cause I always want to do a training and then I, you know, I've got four kids and a full caseload, right? Those are my priorities, right? And employees, right? Those are my priorities of these other dreams kind of, you know, you know, they'll, they'll come when they come. The thing I wish that all women knew and that people understood better is that, um, and really, maybe not all women but particularly, more and more I see postpartum anxiety. I almost don't see depression anymore. Um, I've never seen psychosis. So psychosis is one and a thousand women in a, you know, that those are the women that get a bunch of news for harming their children are harming themselves. It's very, very rare. I'm going to knock on wood here though, cause I, you know, I would love to, to never see that, although I feel equipped, but you know,
Monica:
But the sensationalism of that, of the, that extreme and very rare, um, representation, of a perinatal mood disorder is, is not necessarily what you're seeing. And it's not statistically common. It's more anxiety that you see.
Kate:
And that also matters because then the next thing that is represented as depression. And this was part of, um, you know, tripped people up, in me getting help is that I was very vigilant about my first born. I was obsessively in love with her. I felt super attached. But I also was like buzzing with anxiety and because I wasn't depressed, I was not low. Yeah. I looked great cause it wasn't sleeping. So I got up, I took a shower in my house is clean, I have makeup on. I'm, you know, breastfeeding, I'm right. You know, doing the things, dit, dit, dit, dit, dit that
Monica:
You're not a picture of depression, you're not showing symptoms of depression.
Kate:
Exactly. And that is what I also wish women would know. And um, so what I'm seeing more and more are the women who been anxious for awhile and then they crash and then they come in and it's because they don't know. So I just, you know, I guess I want to highlight like postpartum depression and anxiety, that the anxiety component is so huge. And that's when I am talking about a training... If I were going to do a training, I would want to talk about postpartum anxiety,
Monica:
To train people to look for that. That there's, there's almost a stereotype of, okay, now are, people are somewhat familiar with the idea of postpartum depression, but you don't hear people familiar with postpartum anxiety.
Kate:
Right. And I just, you know, and, and kind of talking with colleagues who were in the PMAD, at least here in the Atlanta area, right. I'm going to be in Philadelphia in a couple of weeks and I'll be interested to check in with people from around the country, but at least here, that is kind of the consensus, you know, and it's not just Buckhead, you know, I've got a colleague in th Grant park area and one up in Marietta area and we're, we're all seeing these women or are anxious and so that can just be a barrier for care. Right? Like everyone's like, what do you love your baby? Yeah. Okay. Then you're okay.
Monica:
Oh, right, right, right, right. Yeah. That's not what we're looking at. Right, right, right. Okay. Okay. No, that's super helpful. Um, and you know, what would you, um, and then we're going to pivot a little bit, but last about this, what would you tell, um, the people in women's lives who are or are not getting treated, um, in, in, as far as reproductive mental health goes? Because at times, you know, people may have no idea what to do or, you know, you might run into any other sort of thing and either husbands or partners or family members. What would you, what would you want to say to them?
Kate:
Yes. Well, um, it's, this is a great question because it isn't, I will tell you, it's not unusual for me and know as a therapist, this is always a little, but it is not an unusual to get a call from a mother as a woman or a husband or a partner, you know? And that's one of those things, it's tricky as a therapist, but this is such a good question because a lot of times, you know, the nature of these illnesses is that women don't always know. They think, oh, I just hate being a mother. Oh, I'm just a bad mother. And, um, so what I would say is, you know, um, with, with love and compassion and empathy, speak to the, this, this woman in your life. Um, tell her, you know, I'm concerned for you, um, be sure to layer and there you are such a good mom, you are doing such a good job.
Kate:
And I'm worried because you don't seem like yourself. Um, you know, make sure that her, OB knows. Makes sure you know, and then, you know, someone's listening there, there's a great website, Postpartum Progress, which is awesome, you know, it has resources and tabs for loved ones. And then Karen Kleiman wrote a book that I would say 90% of the time I, you know, get to clients, new clients to read if they're, if they're partnered and it's called The Postpartum Husband. Now Insert in there, the postpartum, she will even say, you know, that's hetero normative and you know, it's an important book, but whether you're a mother, a gay or lesbian couple, you know, um, or you know, if you're the husband, which is most of my caseload, but I'm, you know, I'm sensitive to the fact that families look all different ways, um, that, um, The Postpartum Husband is a great fast read and it gives you tips. It's actually written in bullet points. It's a great resource.
Monica:
And I'll put a link to both of these things here too. That's so awesome. Okay, well then pivoting just a tiny bit, um, I know you have a passion in particular for working moms, you are one yourself and, um, what do you think are some of the things that, um, that you see right, that, that we struggle with as working moms.
Kate:
Oh Wow. Um, so I mean, all the things, right? You know, um, how to find balance, how to, you know, have any kind of self care in there. How to suss out and, and increase trust around the value of quality time versus quantity time.
Monica:
So tell us what you mean by that. Quality time versus quantity time.
Kate:
Yeah. So it's, it's, it's good news for all moms whether they work inside the home or outside of the home. Um, but, but the, the research bears out that, that having quality time with our kids is much more valuable than quantity. So, um, it's, it's something I'm a big fan of. And of course I can't remember where I read this, right. I can look for it, but that for four connection points a day of quality are what kids really need. So that's significant. Um, waking time. This is an example. It can be whatever... Significant waiting time. Um, a quality goodbye when they leave for the day. A quality, um, reunion when mom or dad get home or after school, if you're working inside the home and then a quality bedtime and like, oh, check, check, check. You know?
Monica:
That is so doable. It's.. Oh my gosh. Yes. I love that. It's just like, we can all do that. Whether you're a stay at home mom or working full time mom or a part time working mom, you can do that.
Kate:
Yes. And you know, and I see it, you know also for my women who work inside the home, you know, and they have all this time with their kids and you know, we're all on our devices and our experience they can get unmoored from the kids, you know, they're just trying to cope and like, oh my gosh, you know, day 500....
Monica:
right, right, right. Absolutely. It all bleeds together. Yep.
Kate:
Yeah. So it kind of frees everybody up. Like, look, how have these times...I mean of course I'm way oversimplifying, but just as I said, I know you were asking about quality versus quantity. Yeah. So for working moms, letting go of the guilt and building in these rituals and routines that are really meaningful to their children and then also just for parents in general to kind of, yes. Let ourselves off the hook there. There is a great book about, and that thing called All Joy and No Fun: The Paradox of Modern Parenthood.
Monica:
Oh yeah. I'll put a link to that too. That's awesome. That's awesome. I love how that just frees people up, right? Just to intentionally connect. And this is awesome. Okay. Um, tell me, yeah, I know that you just turned 40 and I'm about to, and what are some of the insights about motherhood in even this topic about being a working mom, um, that you wish you would've known 10 years ago? You know, what are, what are some, the things that, you know, maybe maybe it's the same sort of, yeah, just thing that, you know, what if I intentionally connect with my children that's shown to be really the most meaningful, not just endless buckets of quality time, but what, what would it be that you might tell yourself?
Kate:
Okay, this is a good question. Um, man, I think... You better edit this Monica, cause I gotta think for a minute thought about this.
Monica:
Yeah. And we can take it out and I can edit it.
Kate:
No, no, no. We're good.
Monica:
Good. Let's keep it real. And this is what it's the brain of a working mom as like, it's just, there's so many things and I'm just driving, I was driving my three kids to volunteer at church yesterday and I was like, I hope I can remember where I'm going. There's so many things in my brain that I am doing. And so maybe it's just cause we, cause there's just so many. So I mean, I feel like this is, uh, uh, a real answer is that you know, that, that you're, you're, you're doing so many things all at the same time. You're nurturing and in particular as a therapist, you're, you know, you're, it's a very, it's a lot that you're doing at once.
Kate:
Yeah. It is. I mean, I think what I would I say, I mean this is so fairly specific to keep Kate Ferguson, wierdo, but...
Kate:
I think would tell myself that 10 years you're going to have, this happened to me... I had to write a bio and I, I forwarded it to my husband and I was like, I can't, this doesn't feel true. Like, can you make sure everything I just wrote here is true? Because it was like beyond my wildest dreams. Right. And, and I think I would tell myself 10 years ago, just do the next right thing.
Monica:
Yes. I love that.
Kate:
It's gonna, it's gonna be hard, but it'll be shockingly ok.
Monica:
Yes. Um, so what you're telling me is that in this bio you had to have your husband sort of, hey, get eyes on this because did I ask you what did this actually happen? Was actually able to accomplish these things when some 10 years ago it felt like that would be impossible.
Kate:
Felt like a dream bio. And I was like, wait a minute, did I do these things? And let me be clear. There are things of that armed in there. Um, you know, I personally love to to write. And I definitely thought I would like write a book or keep up creative writing and my personal life and you know, I definitely thought that I would still be like a distance runner. You know, Mama goes for a walk, so don't get me wrong, but still it was just, you know, meaningful. It's going to be okay. Try to have fun. Um, yeah, I love the, in my intro, you'd say that I'm funny because I, I don't think of myself as funny, but I definitely something about 10 years ago that I really set my mind to was to laugh more and the, um, just to try to have fun. So when you said that, that just seeing that that was meaningful to me
Monica:
I'm glad, and I love this, that, you know, laugh more, have fun, it's going to be okay. And these, you know, and I know you, these are not lightweight suggestions. These are intentional, you know, ideas, um, about going forward and also just doing the next right thing. I think that when you're, when you're drowning in bodily fluids of the children you love, right? It can seem like you're never going to accomplish anything. And, and yet if we just do the next small right thing, which some days might be buying groceries, some days might be applying for a new job, um then then we actually will see that build if we just keep going and, and I think motherhood is one of those things that is such a blessing and can make you feel like you're just spinning your wheels and you're not getting anywhere. So I love that. Love that.
Kate:
It's true. It's true.
Monica:
So speaking of motherhood, I'm going to pivot one more place short before we wrap up. And you know one of the things that I know that you have a particular passion or commitment or focus on...is is is just what we're, what we're seeing, you know, in our field is just the peak and people are seeing it everywhere. I would imagine the peaking of alcohol and anxiety in women and mothers, you know, that what, tell me what you're seeing about this and how do we kind of have this conversation without it meant women feeling too much shame to enter the conversation...
Kate:
Yes. I love that you talk about the shame piece cause that is like not of interest to me at all, who does want to shame someone/// this is one of reluctant advocacy areas for me, but, but I just, I see women working women, new moms, you know, um, just self medicating with alcohol, the marketing messages that we get that are so damaging for, I think moms and women like be skinny, have a baby it's going to be the best day of your life! It also alcohol is, is um, looped into that and marketed to women. Like you said, the pinking of alcohol is sort of this like marketing towards women. Um, the, the women now keep up with men in terms of rates of alcoholism and um, uh, you know, liver disease and all of these things. And so just at work, I, I, you know, you knew like don't, don't, sorry, how's your drinking, how's your this?
Kate:
But what I just, um, you know, with these increasingly anxious women, what I'm seeing going along with that is an increase in drinking alcohol. You know, take the, the mom at home, either after a workday, whether her kids or at the end of us working inside the home day. And it's an easy thing to pour a glass of wine because your husband doesn't have to be home. Your partner doesn't have to be home, you know, you don't have, you know, it's just, you can just start sipping on wine. But the problem is that that pours gasoline on your anxiety.
Monica:
And tell us about that, I don't think people know that.
Kate:
Yeah, okay. Yeah. So I, you know, I love neurosciences and it literally alcohol is, you know, I used to tell people I can't treat your depression if you're depressing yourself with alcohol because it's a depressant. But now I'm saying I cannot get your anxiety under control or you can't, you know, it's not me, its the the client, you can't be sorry, but you can't get your anxiety under control if you are drinking, you know, a bottle of wine and not eat because yes, it calms you down in the shorts are and helps you fall asleep. But it has a withdrawal effect that causes you to wake up at 2:00 AM, anxious, sweating, heart racing and then you're not well rested. So then your fatigued...fatigue, it doesn't allow, you know, your brain isn't getting to scrub itself clean and reset it at night and it becomes this cycle of anxiety. And the other thing is that I was seeing more and more is that some women can, you know, buy into the marketing thing and have mommy wine night and it's wine 30 and Dah, Dah, Dah.
Kate:
And then I can say, or they can come to understand it's not helpful and they can stop drinking. But for other women who either have a genetic predisposition to addiction or alcoholism, it is not that easy. And it's really contributing to women being very sick with alcoholism. And there's a ton of stigma around that. You know, people think an alcoholic is a, is a homeless guy, you know, a male in the gutter with a brown paper bag. And I'm telling you, there are alcoholics who are suffering and miserable and they get up and they care for their children and they go to work and they, and they hate themselves and they go home and they say, I'm not going to drink tonight. And then they start drinking and then they hate themselves and it's a whole cycle. And I just, I can't not talk about that. On the one hand, I personally don't want to be fun, but then here I am out here like, yeah, no, I'm drinking is crap. And it's terrible for women. I hope that's fun for you...
Monica:
That's a funny delivery of it. But I think it's.... Right. And I, and I don't think people, people know that. And I don't think, you know, people know that, that the quantity and the habitual drinking in that way, what it's been so normalized, I don't think people realize how it can affect your body and if you're struggling at all with anxiety or depression and how that can contribute to what you're experiencing symptom-wise.
Kate:
Absolutely. And I don't, and I do want to say, I don't say any of this in a shaming way. Like, I feel tremendous love and affection and care for women who are struggling with this. And I don't know if you've seen this in your office, but I just over the years and more and more hear at more, what do you mean? Like, uh, I kind of drank a lot or, you know, I'm Kinda, you know, I, I wish I was, weren't drinking like every day or like the binge drinking is on the rise and, you know, it's just, um, yeah, it's just, I can't not talk about it, you know?
Monica:
Absolutely. It's your reluctant advocacy. Well, and so, and then pivoting one more time too, I'm really using this word pivot today. We're pivoting all over this. And one of the things that I love that you've said to me is that you prefer the word committed over the word passionate. And you said this about our pro, you know, practice in the therapy world, which I think it's so, it's such a refreshing thing to think about. Um, but tell me how we can also apply this not just to, if you're a therapist, but if you're not a therapist. The idea of being committed versus passionate.
Kate:
Yeah. Um, so, well, it's interesting, I think about it a lot in the therapy context... If I start there and we can like work it out to the world, but, um, you know, every, everybody and their mama like talks about how they are passionate about it. I mean, as I can still be on my website that I built six years ago, it never looked at it again. But, um, I just started to notice that people were like, I, I'm passionate about this. I'm passionate about helping women and I'm passionate about, you know, postpartum depression. But then there's no training behind it. There's no consult behind it. There's no, you know, are you reading every book? Are you, does the news catch your eye? Like, um, and so I guess, you know, personally and professionally, you know, like, I'm like, here's a great example. Okay. So I guess when I, when people are asking me like, who should I see as a therapist?
Kate:
Blah blah blah, I'm like, you know, make sure they're in a consult group room and makes sure they're committed and they show this through their own going education and trust. You know, it's not like a one and done cognitive therapy intensive over one weekend and then, yeah.
Monica:
Like 18 years ago.
Kate:
Yeah! And then, you know, like, uh, well, oh sorry. But like you show commitment to RT... Are we allowed to talk about that?
Monica:
Of course! Like ongoing training....I believe in that. And I am a nerd for it. And I believe it is essential to serve your clients well.
Kate:
Yes. And that to me is like commitment, right? And so as a working mom, like I am committed to this work because I have come to work sick, I have gone, I have left my children to go to training, I have la, I have missed out on things, you know, just trying to strike a balance. But I'm so committed to this work that it's, it shows right in, in, you know, suiting up, showing up.
Kate:
I was puking all day yesterday and here I am today....,
Speaker 2 :
Yes. Real talk. Working moms.
Kate:
And not in a self abusive, you know, that kind of way. But just, um, you know, I, I, so, you know, like I would say I'm passionate about like writing. Like I, I, I feel a or, or you know, a great affection for it, but I'm not committed to it because something had to give.
Monica:
That makes so much sense.
Kate:
I get, so to me now, when I hear whether it's "I'm passionate about this as a therapist" or as a doctor or as just a, I'm passionate about fitness, I'm like, are you really like, it's what you just said. Are you a nerd for fitness there? Maybe it's just something you really like mad props to you, but your passion does not qualify. I think that's, and I know that sounds really judgy, but I guess it is judgy.
Monica:
I don't know if it's judgy, I think it's just a distinction...between a feeling right? And a willful choice. Passion is a feeling and commitment is a willful choice. And I think that that's important. You know?
Kate:
I'm stealing that!
Monica:
You came up with the whole thing anyway...
Kate:
Yeah. I don't know if people know this about you, but you're so good at listening and then saying back the concise words. You and Mazi are masters at that.
Monica:
Well I don't know, but thank you. I appreciate that. But then, and then this is our final question and I'm having so much fun talking to you. I don't want to wrap it up, but then the working mom, I mean this day's going to go on. Um, so you have to, we have to do the next thing, unfortunately. But a question I'm asking everyone is, is what is one unexpected person or event that helped shape you into becoming who you are today? And this could be deep, this could be light, this could be anything in between. You know, what's something that has, you know, and I know there's many things of course, but one thing that has kind of shaped you into becoming who, who we're talking with today.
Kate:
I did think about this one. You know, I thought about it, we've already talked about it professionally. Certainly, being a survivor of postpartum anxiety, you know really changed the trajectory of my life. But I feel like there's
Kate:
Gosh, so I mean, it's like you think of so many things. Last year, you know, before my 40th I, I went to, um, as you know, but I went to meet, uh, you know, the accident, anyone one answer, so I'm until they'd be. So then I went to meet Richard Rohrer and, he's a Franciscan priest who's written in like every good book, everyone should read all of Richard Rohr's books, whether you're Christian or not. He is epic and prolific. And, um, and I, before I turned 40, I, we went to Santa Fe. Alex and I did. And, and went and saw his, saw him offer a mass and she's just a very ordinary priest and people in that room probably don't know about this whole other side of him. And that was really meaningful. I went and I met him and I cried..and he was like, "what brings you here?" And I was like, you!!
Kate:
And he's one of my teachers. And he's been a huge influence on me, just in terms of worldview and grace. Um, so, and I, you know, the other thing I'm comfortable saying that really I more recently and as an adult is that I also, it's been as five years ago now that I decided to take a alcohol, off the table for myself, I stopped drinking five years ago. Um, and there's a no big dramatic story, right? You know, it was really about having integrity with just telling, you know, having this, these thoughts about alcohol and having my own like struggle with, am I going to drink? Am I not going to drink tonight? Yeah. Yeah. Whether it was one glass of wine, right. I just took it off the table for myself, which is a whole other story. But I would say that, um, being a sober woman, which is how I identify, um, has been certainly in my right. So in my, what I just kind of going into the second half of my life, right? So 35 to 40, I spent just figuring out the sobriety super power and now it's, um, it's the best thing I've done for myself because it has healed me and yeah.
Kate:
Opened me up in, in, in ways that I, I don't believe I personally could have accessed while I was still, well, I was still in the equation, so me personally.
Monica:
Sure, sure. Absolutely.
Kate:
Wow. So yeah, that's sort of my long answer.
Monica:
it's a fantastic answer, fantastic. Yeah. Well thank you so much. I mean I really could talk to you forever yourself. You are so much fun to talk to and, and like I said at the beginning, you, you walk this line of humor, relate-ability, and depth and you just, and I think it makes, it makes, you know, your nerdy commitments of, you know, research and in all of the things that you, you know, that you have, um, really committed yourself to be good and excellent at what you do. It makes it accessible for people, you know? And so thank you for taking this time.
Kate:
Well, thank you for doing this. I don't know if people know that this was a dream and a longterm commitment of yours, and it's really life giving to me to see you doing it. I'm like, this is happening for Monica in the right time, and the same can be true. Yeah. Thanks for the rest. Yeah.
Monica:
We've just go do the next right thing, Which is preschool drop off.
Kate:
Yes, that's right. I know, I know. So go do your preschool drop off.
Monica:
Thanks for talking. All right.
Related Links:
The Postpartum Husband, by Karen. R. Kleiman
All Joy and No Fun, by Jennifer Senior
Kate references Richard Rohr, here is a list of books on Amazon.