Michael Cox

I had the pleasure of meeting Michael Cox, MA, LPC, and his wife Coloma, at a therapy conference, where he was the presenter, and the pioneer, in applying the therapy model, Restoration Therapy, in work with adolescents.

Michael describes himself as first and foremost a husband and father. He enjoys playing volleyball, working out with his wife Coloma, coaching the sports teams of his three boys, and watching others enjoy the food he has prepared for them. Like so many others, life has dealt him great joys as well as great pains.

Professionally, Michael is a Licensed Professional Counselor, Level II Restoration Therapist and a Master Trainer for Mental Health First Aid. He has over 20 years of experience working with adolescents and their families, individuals and couples. Prior to entering the counseling/MHFD field Michael was a vocational minister. Michael and Coloma have launched their own practice Whole Life Priorities in Austin, Texas.

Michael approaches his own life and the lives of his clients holistically.  His practice is focused on serving the whole person and family, and he does it in a way that’s compelling and inspiring.  You will find yourself wanting to take that same approach in your own life after listening to this interview.  It just makes so much sense.  It sounds like Micheal and Coloma are living the life they are practicing professionally.  There is a synergy to their work.  You will likely find yourself wishing you had Whole Life Priorities and Michael as a therapist for your adolescents in the state you are in.  

He addresses young people with dignity and with the goal of helping them live a whole life, to see themselves as whole beings, giving them a chance to address those problems early and work adult therapists out of a job.

If you are the parent or caregiver of an adolescent, or soon to be adolescent, this is a must listen.  If you are a parent of a child of any age, it is a must listen. He advises moving from a directive stance with younger kids to an inquisitive stance with older kids, allowing the space for them to figure out who they are becoming while maintaining connection with their parents. He describes the importance of really knowing your child—not just what they like or dislike—in order to partner with them on their developmental journey.

We talk about couples in this interview too, and the power of this idea of “us-ness.” You’ll learn about some of the blocks that keep couples from their capacity to bring the best out of each other.

The firm belief in the worth and value of each young person marks Michael’s work with adolescents, and the full circle expression of what his own grandmother poured into him. You won’t want to miss the end of this interview when Michael describes a vital person who helped him become who he is today. It’ll make all of us reflective on the impact we can have on others as well.

(A note to listeners, Michael and I reference a therapy model called Restoration Therapy, or RT, founded by Dr. Terry Hargrave often in this interview. It is a model that is applicable to all of our lives in and out of the therapy room because of it’s accessibility and the way it helps us organize our stories. It works from the framework that violations of love and trustworthiness in our lives develop into problems of identity and safety for us. Once unproductive patterns about our identities and sense of safety are named, we can make thoughtful choices about what is true and about our personal beliefs and relationships, which can lead to lasting change.)

LISTEN HERE:

(Transcript of audio)

Monica:
Well, um, I know that we met really briefly at the Restoration Therapy summit in California, which was unfortunately canceled because of the wildfires over there. Um, but I, I loved getting to meet you and your wife, Coloma, and just sort of hear about what you guys are doing in Texas. Um, and also I got to hear you teach about adolescents and restoration therapy, which is far as I understand you're the first person to ever use that model of therapy with adolescents, which is really cool that you're, you know, designing that.

Michael:
Yeah. It's cool. And at the same time, you're like, it would be nice to have some examples to follow.

Monica:
Right, right. Yeah, exactly. It'd be nice to have a path to follow there. Um, but I, I would love just to hear about you, about you personally and I'm just what you do professionally. I think that we'd all be interested in that.

Michael:
Yeah. So, um, personally, so I don't want that. This is my second career. As far as professionally goes, I was in ministry vocationally for 13 years prior to going into counseling.

Monica:
Okay. Wow. I didn't realize that. What kind of ministry, where are you in?

Michael:
Mostly youth ministry, you know, we did youth ministry, did local missions for a little bit. Um, I was a lead pastor for a year and a half and found out very quickly that was definitely not the path for me.

Monica:
That's a very unique calling.

Michael:
Yeah. It was, and it was not mine. Yes. We relieved everybody of that.

Monica:
My husband was, my husband's dad is a pastor and he said to my husband, if you can do anything else, do that. Um, yeah, but go ahead. And so then after being a lead pastor, where did you go from there?

Michael:
Yeah, that's when I went back to Grad school. Grad School, got my, uh, licensed therapist. And so, um, do you mind if I step back, do you mind if I do personal first, and then we will do professional?

Monica:
Oh yeah. I would love to hear. Yeah, absolutely.

Michael:
So I grew up in New Mexico. New Mexico is where I graduated high school. My Dad's family is originally from Tennessee, so we spent quite a bit of time back and forth between the two places, but predominantly New Mexico is where I grew up in left there when I left college to um, go to actually when I got my degree in a bachelor's degree is in, um, uh, religion. I was like, what was that?

Monica:
Yeah, it's so long ago.

Michael:
Yeah. Um, so did that there I, you know, growing up was a very active young man. Did different things, um, how to, you know, all those different things and have my own struggles as far as a teenager goes, but somehow managed to get out of it a whole this point. Um, but then left high school and went on to study at Wayland Baptist University is where I got my degree. Um, and while there finished out school, the typical college stuff, and it wasn't until after college, I went and did an internship at Texas a and m university. I'm an a student ministry there and then went on a mission trip and met my wife on a mission trip. Yeah, it was fine. To South Padre island, we both kind of reluctantly ended up there. She had gone numerous times, um, with, uh, west Texas A and M and this year she was kind of doing some personal things that are perhaps kind of forced her to go get away from things. And uh, so she went and I went kind of reluctantly in my Internship, the interns were doing like overseas and really cool things I like and I got to go to beach week where a bunch of people decided to drink and party. Right, right, right. Yeah, that was how I got there and I met my bride so it was definitely worth it. That was in 2000 no though than, yeah, that was in 2000. Um, when that happened and uh, we got married in 2001.

Monica:
Yeah. You guys knew

Michael:
We didn't waste any time. Yeah, it was good. She, uh, I met her in, so that was in March when I met her. Her up 2000 and we were engaged by August of 2000.

Monica:
Oh Wow. That's amazing. How, how did you feel so sure? What I mean, if that's not too personal to ask. What was it about Coloma that you just said, you know what, this is it.

Michael:
You know, it was back in that time before cell phones were popular. Yeah. Um, our communication has to be on chat. What was it? Chat. Yahoo Chat.

Monica:
Yeah. Something like that. Email, something.

Michael:
Yeah. And so really we were in, we were a few hundred miles away from each other? Um, our initial meeting we met, fell to, um, Texas was literally about three to five minutes. We didn't talk long, exchanged information, exchanged information, and just started talking via email predominantly. I remember sitting in the office of our secretary where was where we had the only computer wasn't at their house. And, uh, and tell her, I said, I'm going to marry this woman. And it was just through our communication. We just talked, um, via email. And the funny part of the story is the first time I ever called her, um, the way she tells it, she goes, she didn't even know who I was.

Monica:
Um, yes. You didn't know your voice, right? Right. Yeah, yeah,

Michael:
Yeah. It was just through communications to chance. We really just had, you know, we had physical distance and so it was a chance to really get to know each other and communicate and found out, you know, what her heart was like and how she, she was as a person and fell in love with that. So three boys later, four cities later. Here we are.

Monica:
Wow. So you guys have three boys and how old are they,

Michael:
They're 12. 10 and 7.

Monica:
Wow. Yeah. Active ages, I guess what boys and I mean it's all kids. They're all active, but that seems like they're probably into a bunch of things. And each of them.

Michael:
Yeah, they are, you know, they, um, we trying to restrict them to one sport at a time. Yeah. School is, you know, they get, that's their job as we tell them right now is this school. And so make sure that's taken care of before do anything else, but when they're home, they're riding bikes, playing basketball, chasing each other, fighting, you know, what boys do.

Monica:
Yeah. And, and all the stuff that, I love that you said that, that, um, you know, maybe we can talk more about that with your work professionally, too later, but all the stuff that little boys should be doing, you know, or little girls should be doing, having the time and the, the margin to actually be a kid and run around and you know, and play at home because so often kids are so overscheduled now that there's just not that time.

Michael:
Oh yeah. Yeah. I, my my mantra, or our mantra has been, they're too young for us to be investing all of our time and money in their sports careers.

Monica:
Um, well then, so take us back to, you know, you're, you're realizing as you become a lead pastor, you're married at this point, I'm guessing you have at least one or two or, um, of your kids born. Um, and, and what, what, why did you decide, you know what, I'm going to go back to graduate school and become a therapist.

Michael:
Yeah. So, uh, before we were lead pastors, we are working in the mission in North Dallas, did a lot of social engagement, a lot of social work with folks. And I think when I was in Undergrad I always knew I wanted to do some sort of social ministry anyway. Yeah. Where it was something that was more outside of the walls of the church. Yeah. And this kind of actually affirmed that it'd be doing that work there. And even when I was in churches, um, it felt like the majority of the young people, especially in their families that would come to be, or folks who are outside of the walls of this church, but also just dealing with heavy stuff. And I just got to a place where I just did not feel equipped. Like, yeah, I'd be like, I can pray with you and I could sit with you, but beyond that I have no clue what to do.

Michael:
Yeah. Um, and so I think that matched with what I felt were some just, you know, God given talent. I was like, you know whatI need to go back to school. Yeah. As we did in ministry, there were, you know, we had to enjoyed our time in ministry. We had great, great time, still in in touch with a lot of the young people that we worked with and really enjoyed that. But I think it was, um, and the confines of the four walls of the church, just wasn't , where my gifting was. Yeah. Um, and so once we finally made that plunge and tried, the ministry thing for a little, I even tried teaching for a year, um, we were able to say, hey, it's time to do it. And so went back to Grad school and haven't turned back since.

Monica:
That's awesome. And it's, it's, it's so cool that you went into, I mean, tell me if I'm getting this wrong Grad school because you wanted to serve people better, right? The people that you were serving, you said, you know what? I want to become more equipped to serve them even even better.

Michael:
Right right. When you young people and their families, yeah. You know come crossroads, you know talking about suicide, talking about being, you know, violated and molested, just things that you're like, and they trusted me because of the relationship we had, I felt completely unequipped, ill equipped to be able to help out. So yeah, definitely. Went back to figure out a better way to be able to minister to folks.

Monica:
That's awesome. And so then that takes us to, you know, what you do today professionally, um, as a therapist. Tell us a little bit about what you do now. Like what, who, who do you work with typically as clients

Michael:
So the majority of my clients are adolescents. I usually see adolescents and their families, um, because when I take on a client, I make it very clear to the caregivers, whoever it is that might be, um, that this is a team effort. And so, um, there may be an identified problem young person's coming with, but we all got to work together. So it was majority of his young people in their families. But I see, I see adults, I see couples, but the probably, I would say probably about 55 to 60% of the clients I see are adolescents. Okay. Um, and so, uh, we, my wife and I actually just launched Whole Life Priorities in January. Okay. Um, very fresh. Yes, absolutely.

Monica:
Yeah. Tell me about the name, Whole Life Priorities. I love that name so much. Tell me why you guys, why you guys chose that name.

Michael:
You know, some of the, most of it came from personal journey. You know, both of us have a family history of diabetes and different health problems that run in both of our families. And um, you know, I lost my dad to it a year and a half ago, to a complication of diabetes and um, just a lot different things. We've seen it happen and I've always kind of had a life goal is like I'm just not going to become another statistic and it just was not, I didn't want to be on that road. And so just doesn't, my wife and I began talking, she had an experience with some allergies. I think was right before our youngest son, so it was a good seven, or eight years ago. She just had a chronic sinus problems and had already had two sinusitis surgeries um, back at the doctors. And they were like, hey, we got to do a third. And she was like, I'm just not doing that she can tell you more about that.

Michael:
Um, and so we sought out other means. And so that began to just sit there. So we started seeing a chiropractor who had a holistic approach to medicine and we just started looking at how there were foods that we're contributing to her sinuses. And that was really what was causing most of her problems. So an adjustment in the way that we eat, realizing that physically we'd had to be at a place where, hey, we have young children, we weren't getting younger. Right? So what, how are we gonna keep up with them? And really just does that place of thinking, you know, for a family, from a family perspective, for this to really work, right? So there's times where we would do a diet together or we get on an exercise regimen and it really wouldn't stick it out in order to just like, you know what?

Michael:
But when we do it together, we really see better dividends and better outcomes. So if we're on the same diet and workout plan, if we're in and diet, I say it's by the way of eating, not so much of being on a diet, but living and eating. When we do that together, man our whole life and we're like, oh, there's a name! Our whole life is better and more sustainable. I think that's kind of where it came from. Being able recognize that it's, it's really about, so even with mental health, right? Is that sometimes we silo things and just put it all in one, you think of the category, we're whole beings, so how do we really get to a place where we are treating the whole person, but more specifically you, whatever your family makeup might look like, how do we really treat the entire family for a better outcome and sustained outcome?

Monica:
Yes. Okay. That's amazing. Is that, is that, is that also in, in the heart of kind of your approach when you're treating adolescents, you, you know, you say to the caregivers like, listen, like you're going to be involved in this too. It's sort of that holistic approach. The whole system has got to be in it.

Michael:
Yup. Yup. Yup. That's in that very, most of my clients was our first session, you know it varies depending on what the issue is when they're coming in, but most of them, it's a conversation like I just took new intake yesterday, and hey, I need everybody at the table, specifically mom and dad and the client and everybody needs to be in that first session. Let's talk about that. We need to look at everything, right? What's going on? You give me the identified problem. But we need to make sure that no, that you were a whole being and as a young person, let's start helping develop that for you to look at yourself as a whole being not just this diagnosis or this specific problem, but look at your whole being.

Monica:
Wow. I love that. And I bet that gives your clients and especially young clients who may not want to be there because they're adolescents, um, a lot, a lot of dignity, you know, that you're not your diagnosis. This is, this is your whole being and we're going to look at the whole picture.

Michael:
Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if you know this, I think you mentioned this is some of the outline you sent. You know, my work didn't start in direct, um, clients in as far as the therapy goes. I did a lot of in public health, it's public health is what got me started, public mental health. No. Uh, had a chance early on to work with a system called System of Care, where I did youth engagement, youth empowerment work. And it was just helping young people be a part of finding their voice and giving that their opinions and voice back to the system to better families and their treatment. And that really kinda got me started in the mental health field. And so all along I've been a part of that process of helping young people understand their abilities that are in them.

Michael:
They're not confined by one, a diagnosis, but also not confined by a condition. Yeah. So let's figure out what those, that and what that looks like. What would that mean and how do we empower you to live a better life? And my goal, I think I said this at the Summit, if you know, we're able to get that ahead of time. If I'm able to help young people understand they're whole beings and that all of their health is important. I really, we might be out of a job later. To be able to say, we're not waiting as adults to start dealing with all this stuff and having better, better equipped of how to live a better life, a holistic life. Um, earlier on.

Monica:
I love that. And you're working your way working the rest of us adult therapists out of a job.

Michael:
Yeah, exactly.

Monica:
Tell me one question. When you're talking about this amazing experience with helping young people find and use their voices. And this is pivoting and a little bit, but I'm sure most of us who are parents, you know, where I find myself thing is, well, what could Michael tell us about doing that for our own kids too, you know? Um, yeah. What would you say to, you know, to all of us that are parents currently or are gonna be, how to help your kids, you know, find their own voice and to use it? Like what is some of the ways that we can, not necessarily tactics, but kind of the spirit of helping them find their own voice?

Michael:
Yeah, I love that question. The best, probably this one thing I find myself repeating most often, the parents is, especially for adolescents, right? And so not so much, maybe younger, but it works more about that 13 and older age. Um, it's the, it's the shift from directive. So being directive about, um, this is what has to be, this is the road that you have to tow all these different things and being more inquisitive. And so asking questions because they're at an age where they're starting to develop their identity and they are just as confused about what that identity is as we are. And so they're asking questions, they have questions, they want to know what's going on in their body. They want to know what's going on in their minds, all those different things. And they're asking someone. Yeah.

Michael:
And most of the time they're asking their peers and sometimes get decent information, but unfortunately most of the time get bad advice from other developing youngr people. Um, and so for parents, I say just be more inquisitive about your young people, less directive. And from that you actually build a partnership with your young person in their development and they don't feel they're already going to be rebellious or already going to be all those things because that's what the stage of life they're in. Um, but if we can figure out a way to become partners in their development, um, then I think we have a better win with them. Um, because now they don't see it as adversarial. They see you as a partner in that process. And so when I see that shift happening, even in therapy, um, parents will come in and be like, how'd you get dah dah dah?

Michael:
I say, well, one, I'm not their parents so they want to give me a leg up. But the other is, is really helping parents just to be inquisitive about the young person and what, who they're becoming and the questions they may have and the other portion of that. But probably the thing is, um, learn to develop "our" shock face. Right? And so when something comes out that it is, yeah, going to rub up against me a little ways, right. How do I respond to that? Because that really your young person is probably to try to challenge you or they really do have a question and if they feel like it's something that's going to get an adverse response, they're probably not going to have that conversation with you again. And so how do we open up that door to really just be in, that means if my child coming to me and their question, their sexuality, they're coming in, they're questioning their faith, there's all these different things. That's what they're doing. They're questioning. And they're trying to figure it out. And so when we come back as this hard, um, no wavering, no conversation having any of those things, we really kind of begin to turn our kids away.

Monica:
Wow. And then we would probably start to sever that connection right there, looking for a safe place to be able to become who they're becoming. Um, but we sever it with at times, probably with our shocked face, like you said.

Michael:
Yeah. And if you think about it. I mean, as a parent, um, and this was, I think it was happening with anything, but unfortunately is when we're dealing with young people and trying to raise them. Um, oftentimes what happens is we have an adverse response because they are bumping up against some of our own biases. And if really haven't dealt with those biases and myself and don't have a firm foundation about where I am, I'm going to have a negative response to my child. And so therefore there's a whole other that's being developed for my child at that point about their identity. And if you think about RT, and I know we're gonna get into that a little bit, but you think about RT and we look at love Restoration Therapy and we look at that love and that, that establishment of identity, man, I am giving a message about the young person's identity. And if I'm rejecting at that point, then I'm probably helping them see that they're not loved. And so what are they going to develop from those two areas of blame and shame? By the response I give as a parent.

Monica:
Wow. That's amazing. And yes, we are going to get into restoration therapy in just a second. Um, but before we do that, I love that you brought up, um, you know, parents aren't aware of what their own biases that kids are, you know, their own kids or running into. Can you, um, just tell us a little bit about which I really subscribe to the importance of doing our own work in order to parent well. Um, just because like you said, our kids can trigger us easily at any time. Um, how, how important do you think that is in, in parenting? And I know it's a big question in general to kind of do our own work?

Michael:
Oh yeah. It is a big question, but I think it is vital. Um, and what I think about was so, I was just having this conversation with my wife the other day if you, uh, when I could do a comparison. You don't haven't done any hard fast research as far as studies or groups like that. But anecdotally with the clients that I have, families where I see the most gain in progress with young people are parents where they're able to recognize their own pain. First of all. Their own stuff and where they sit in the thing than what, how that's contributing to the relationship. And so they're either able to lean into that and say, okay, I recognize that I'm, you know, kind of having my own issues here and maybe there needs to be somebody else to help me through this process, therefore a therapist.

Michael:
Or they're able to recognize that, hey, we just need some help. We're not connecting with our child. We know something's going on and we need some help through this process. I see the best outcomes of that because parents were really aware of what's going on. The biggest obstacle I think that happens is when parents come in and the whole, all of the problem is a young person. Come in, fix my child. Um, and there is not a whole lot of conversation around, all right. Yeah. Maybe your child needs some work, but how does this fit into the whole family picture? And one of the major things I find myself telling parents is, what do you think the message to your child when you come up to my office? And you drop them off, come back in an hour later and they won't say it....

Michael:
But the expectation is, are they fixed? That is a message in it of itself to a young person that they are the problem and therefore my parents are finding an external source to fix me as the problem. Again, it goes back to contribute back to that pain stuff. Right? So it's when, when those parents, those are the hardest parents because that tells me that they're not really wanting to explore their bad parenting cause I don't say that, but it's just where their own stuff is and what that may be contributing to what their child is experiencing.

Monica:
And that's back to your, the whole, the whole life and the whole system. From that vantage point. Okay. Wow. And then, so let's talk a little bit about restoration therapy, which we both, you know, share an affinity for that model primarily. I mean, I'm speaking for myself, I'm assuming you to work from that model as a therapist. Um, and you know, I love, you know, when I was reading over your practice site, you say we help people walk from pain to peace in their lives. And I know that that's part of the restoration, um, therapy model, but, but can you sort of tell us, you know, this beautiful, attractive idea of, of how we walk people from pain into peace? How, do you do that?

Michael:
Yeah. So, um, I kind of subscribe to this process with the young people and adults. Obviously there's some different tactics in getting there with the young people that I deal with adults. But it's a really getting people settled in that one, let's, can we get past the stigma that, hey, we're at the therapist. It's kind of normalizing a little bit. We all have stuff in life. We all have junk. And we all develop ways to deal with it. And so really getting a client in that place to say, hey, I have stuff. We don't know exactly what that stuff is, but let's call that stuff something we call it pain. Right? What are those pains in our lives? What are the things that we find ourselves bumping up against and how we respond to those things.

Michael:
Um, and just give that really established and understand yeah ok I've got this stuff, and where would you like to be? Like what, what would the other side of the this look like? That would be, it would be obviously the opposite. I like to feel better. I like to be engaged. That'd be all those different things. That sounds peaceful. That's sounds like you wanted to be a place of peace and a place of rest and a place of just being yourself. And so let's figure out how we're going to walk on this journey together. We have said we're here because we're in this spot. We're at this place of pain and let's figure out how we're going to walk this journey and get to a place of peace. And I don't, I don't know if you remember from the, um, the Summit where I spoke about the path and I use it with young people oftentimes and sometimes with adults.

Michael:
Um, it's kind of this imagery thing and I really used that conversation of let's walk together. All right, we're going to start here and we're going to be on this journey together and we're going to come to different crossroads in this journey and we get a chance to determine are we going to go down a path of pain, are going to go down the path of peace. And both which have an outcome. We go down the path of pain right now because it's predictable. It's probably what we think of as safe. Um, all those different things. But man, that other journey seems difficult, but man, but there's some thing that draws us in that's attractive. Um, so let's figure out what it looks like and walk on that path of peace. And we have to pave that path. And maybe it's not existent in our lives together. And so let's figure out how do we get there. And the more we walked that path of peace, the more it's familiar, the more means it's now our go to. And then maybe at the outcomes of our lives are different. And so just helping them figure out what does that look like and what does that look like for them and how we're going to do that together.

Monica:
Love that. I love that so much. Um, what do you think is the difference between adolescents and adults, you know, in that sort of process? Like what, you know, their, their brains obviously being at such different places, but when you're working with an adolescent in pain versus maybe a married couple or an adult in pain, what do you see that, what are advantages maybe even the adolescents have that, that we don't have as adults when they're attempting to go from pain to peace, or disadvantages?

Michael:
Yeah. There's quite a bit of difference. I think the biggest one, is almost what you were alluding to. Young people, most young people don't have the history of pain that adults do. And so they are a little bit more receptive and a little bit more open, that yes I want this junk to go away. I want this stuff to stop. And so they're much more optimistic about the potential of, um, peace than adults are. And with adults sometimes I find we've had, we have such a history of maladaptively dealing with our pain and it becomes kind of a security blanket and I'm, I'm taking that security blanket away from you and trying to teach you a new way to do things. And so, with adults that becomes an obstacle, because it's like, I don't know, I like my pain. I remember going through the RT training and Terry talking about how we go to our pain because it is familiar and actually we kind of enjoy it.

Monica:
It's the prison we know,

Michael:
Exactly.

Monica:
We put little curtains on it.

Michael:
Yeah. Make it pretty.

Monica:
So adolescents are just more hopeful and more flexible. They're less rigid in their pain.

Michael:
Right. And it's, you know, with young people. When I feel like we're at a place of things are really detrimental is when that young person just sees there is no hope. Um, and there, and that's when we'd take further steps to try to figure out what's, how to deal with that, and so like with the adult model, there are some things that, young people are dealing with that we'd have to kind of get passed before we really can dive deeply into RT. Um, and so really helping them get stabilized. Um, and once we do that, then we're able to move forward. But I think what I see time and time again, um, is that, you know, a young person is, is a different voice. It's not mom and dad and this person believes in me and they don't know me. And that by itself gets me in that where many cannot because it's like I do, I believe in you and I guarantee you if we walk this journey together and you are in it just as much as I'm in it, we can get to peace. And sometimes that's just, and all they need and we're able to get to work.

Monica:
Yeah. I love that. Well, so for those of us that are, I guess your parenting and adolescent, I am about to be very soon. Um, and I think it's, it's one of those things that everyone's sort of, you know, it's one of those classic parent jokes. Like, no, like wait till adolescence, all this sort of things you know, that everyone dreads and gets nervous about. And what would you, what would you say to parents about that maybe they worry too much about or what do we not paying close enough attention to sort of in preparation for adolescents or if we're already there.

Michael:
Yeah, yeah yeah. I think I mentioned this on that some of it as well is we so easily forget that we were once there. Um, uh, we, we were once. And so with our adult minds, we automatically go to all of the potential scenarios, all the potential outcomes and we want to make sure that we protect you from these things and we don't want you to have the experiences that were so harmful to us and all those different things, yet we easily forget that man, that actually was probably part of what part of what developed our resilience. And so what our children, I think it's nice, it even in myself, it's like I want to kind of protect you from all of the harms of the world and forget that that's part of the developmental process. That doesn't mean we just let them live fancy free... But helping to see that as we're walking through that, that that's kind of where that inquisitive thing comes back is every one, I have three different boys and they all are three completely different humans and the way they respond to things.

Michael:
I do think that, so really me being inquisitive about who you are and what's going on in their lives and what's happening, where you are with development. I mean all of these different questions and me being inquisitive about that, gives that young person, an opportunity to begin exploring those things and feel that it's safe. And so I think for parents it allows him to be at a place where they no longer seen as the, nemesis, as the enemy just comes back to that partner thing. And so as a parent, I see that with my son. I see, I have all these aspirations, hopes and dreams for my boys about what they're going to be, what they want to do. And I find out very quickly that sometimes those are not aligned with where they want to go with what they want to do.

Michael:
So outside of it being harmful for them, how do I open up that door to let them figure those things out and let me be a part of the journey, with them in it. And so really just letting them figure out who they are. Many of our parents that come in can not tell me who their child are is. You know, they can tell me what they're interested in, but they cannot describe the person of their child. Um, and so really helping them understand, do you know your child and out of knowing your child, we get to respond differently and how we engage with them.

Monica:
And why do you think that when you have these parents coming in who don't know their child, do you think it's because they're staying in this sort of directive, perhaps controlling positioning rather than an inquisitive positioning about just getting to know this little person that's in their home?

Michael:
Yeah, I think that that's there. I think there is, I think there is definitely a contributing factor of technology and it's separated us in our homes. And so it's easy for us to go to our room or a place of entertainment and let our kids do. They're all our kids are up on this thing doing whatever. Yeah. And so we don't invest the same way. Um, I would probably still argue though before that that parents probably didn't do it because of working whatever. But um, it is, there's a separation there. And so, um, you see it the, gamut. You may see that with a very affluent families that have the abundance of resources at their hands and so their children have the same thing, so therefore they're left to live their own life. Um, and then yet on the opposite end, parents, other parents who don't have the same resources, maybe working too much so can't invest as well. And so it's just really finding those nuggets of time to figure out how do I really get to know my child?

Monica:
Yeah. That's good. That's so good. Well switching gears just a little bit, um, but still in the idea of the family, I know that you also lead marriage retreats and, um, lead them with this sort of idea of us "us-ness": um, what is, what do you mean by that? I, I love that term. Um, tell us kind of what that idea of us, this is that, that you are trying to promote, um, on those retreats for couples and help them discover that sense themselves,

Michael:
Yeah, so we haven't gotten to do one of these at Whole Life priorities yet, but um, it's in the, in the making So we really, that term came from, I'm assuming the Hargraves are the ones that coined it as far as uh, uh, the mostly Marriage Strong five days, all those different things, the curriculum that Sharon Hargrave has been behind. Um, and the concept of "us-ness" is looking at that couple. So what is it that between the two of you, the two of you is one, how was it that you are better, and God more glorified with the two of you as one, then you are separately. How do you find, what's your assertiveness? Is it meaning that if I was by myself as husband, I would not be as effective. You, his wife would not be as effective individually, but together this is what God is most glorified in our "us-ness", in us being us.

Michael:
So the example is my wife and I, we call our "us-ness" is hospitality. It is just being able to, we love having people in our home. I love cooking and serving people and so my wife is, is quintessential, um, extrovert and that she welcomes everybody. She's going to make sure you feel good, that you're comfortable. I'm going to make sure all the other details are taken care of. So the food's gonna be ready for you. It's going to be on point. We're going to eat well. I'm going to have a great conversation around the food and engagement and together that package together, man, we oftentimes hear about folks in there as we were laughing into their house and so welcoming and all the different things that's our "us-ness." And when we're doing that, we feel close to each other. We feel like we are really glorifying the Lord, we are really working well as a couple, whereas on our own, if I was by myself, you know what, details would be taken care of, but people wouldn't feel very welcome, you know, they would they be like, ah, where's Michael? He's in the kitchen. He's not talking to anyone. Whereas with Coloma, everyone would feel welcome, but they probably wouldn't eat.

Monica:
Perfect illustration of the gifting that you guys both have together makes this whole new entity that welcome, that can you welcome people into. The two of you together. What do you think, um, you know, often gets in the way of "us-ness" for couples and again, as, as a therapist, I know this is a huge broad question that, you know, the thousands of things can get in the way as you know, for couples, but, but what are some of the common things that you think that we as couples kind of, um, get stuck in or you know, or how we get stuck in our pain instead of being able to move together in that way?

Michael:
Yeah. I think the number one thing that comes to my mind in selfishness. When I am so focused, if you even think about Mary and Martha, right in the Bible, when I get so focused on what I'm contributing and maybe I don't feel like you are right. And so therefore we have a problem because you're not seeing things my way or doing things my way or whatever it is. Um, and so I'm really caught up in how I'm either serving the Lord, serving somebody else or whatever it is, as opposed to man what, how we were working as a team to solve a problem or to work through an issue or celebrate something that's going on.So it's that selfish just about me. And I think the other thing becomes competitiveness, which a way, or we feel like we have to one up, well, my gift is better than yours.

Michael:
We have to do this. And we saw that probably more earlier in our marriage. But I see it now, and if what we share with couples is, um, we have certain ways of doing things. And, um, the example would be my wife. I am very, I could live in a museum is what I tell people, all of that, everything has its place, and has to be set in a certain way. And my wife is not that. So I can easily see where for us I was like, if our house isn't clean, what in the world are we doing? And her mentality was like, hey, it'll get cleaned up sometime. Why worry about, it right. And so we could easily lean into one of those and it becomes a problem when I only see it from my lens, as opposed to how we are working together to figure out what is our home look like for us as opposed to your needs, her needs.

Monica:
I love that. And do you find that it's important to help couples kind of get out of their pain cycle, that is what we would call it and restoration therapy. We get out of their pain and get more into their sense of peace in the true sense of who they are in order to be able to be less selfish and less competitive. I mean, do you find that when people are triggered in pain, it's probably much harder for them, right. To be unselfish and, and, and, um, open minded from their spouse's view.

Michael:
Very much so. Yeah. Very much so. That's really the, the pain becomes a blinder, it becomes a complete focus on what my needs are and, or what I'm not getting fulfilled. Um, as opposed to how do I better open up and we're in that place of peace I'm able to still have needs. Right. And it's not, this needs are bad. I still am able to have needs. I can better communicate with you as my partner. Yeah. And how we've worked together in this process as opposed to me retreating back to my pain and only my needs.

Monica:
It makes me think of, I think it was something Terry Hargrave said that in order to be generous there has to be trust. In order to be generous in a, in a relationship, there has to be trust. So, right. Okay. Well, one last question before, um, before we end today is the question that I'm asking everybody is what's up one person or thing or event that helped you become who you are today? And it can be anything, you know, but as you sort of the, the Michael and the father and the therapist and the husband, um, that we are talking with today, what's, what's something that helped you become who you are?

Michael:
I saw that question and try to narrow it down. Yeah. It was a great, great self evaluating question. Um, but I think what I landed on to be where I am today, if I think back foundationally, I had a grandmother that passed away when I was about in sixth or seventh grade, but, um, very early on she was my, my number one cheerleader. Um, you know, I look back, it's funny, my siblings see it as a, you know, with my, even with my parents. You were the favorites. But from my perspective of what's going on, I felt like that there was nothing I could not do. I could accomplish anything. Um, in her eyes was that who you who I am as an individual, I am as a person. Yeah. Is Very valuable. Um, and so, you know, obviously at that age, I didn't know that, but I look back and that's what I received from her. Um, and you know, I tie that to the work that I do with a young person, despite what life brings us, if I can come back to that foundational truth that you really are valuable, you are treasured, you are wanted, you're needed. And if I can get you back to that foundational truth, yeah, man, what does that do to bring your trajectory to something that's awesome.

Monica:
Wow. That, that really blows me away. It blows me away in, in context of what you said earlier about, um, like at all when you work with an adolescent, that part of it is the power of it is that you believe in them you really do, you see the value in them and that that was implanted in you and that that is part of the work you're carrying out. That's so powerful. Wow. Yeah. Wow. That's awesome.

Michael:
It's neat to see it come full circle.

Monica:
Yeah, it's absolutely full circle. Um, thank you so much for talking today. I really appreciate it. This was really fun.

Michael:
Good. I it was, it was definitely a pleasure for me.