Nicole Zasowski

With an incredibly easy warmth and authenticity, Nicole walks us through a part of her own story of grief and hope, as well as some of the best insights on forgiveness. You will find Nicole a kind, welcoming, and knowledgeable voice, and she speaks with the credibility that only experience can create.

Nicole describes losing multiple babies to miscarriage after moving across the country away from family and friends and what she has discovered about herself and about God in that process. Whether your story is similar, or completely different, you will find hope in Nicole’s story of transformation and faith. She describes how her way of coping in her life before - shame, performance, and perfectionism (can’t we all relate to trying these and other things to fix our pain?) - no longer worked in this season of pain and loss, “I didn’t know I needed rescuing from my own dreams.” And that in this time, “ I describe it as the most painful season of my life, but also the most hopeful because of what I found in the wake of what I lost.”

Nicole Zasowski is an author, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and speaker. She lives in a small town just outside New York City with her husband, Jimmy and her son, James.

In addition to maintaining a private therapy practice, her professional work includes leading marriage intensives at The Hideaway Experience in Atlanta, GA, facilitating support and enrichment groups at several local churches in the greater New York City area, and serving as an adjunct professor at Alliance Theological Seminary in Nyack, NY where she taught marriage enrichment courses. Nicole also speaks regularly on topics that combine psychology and faith and has conducted several seminars and been invited to speak at several retreats throughout New England.

Nicole co-authored Families and Forgiveness, Second Edition, (Routledge, 2016) with internationally recognized Marriage and Family Therapist, Dr. Terry Hargrave.  She has also been a regular contributor to Darling Magazine – a publication for women that seeks to redefine femininity and challenge women to find their true identity and purpose. Her article, “How to Work a Room When You’d Rather Walk Out of It” was featured on Donald Miller’s Storyline Blog. Nicole’s writing has also appeared in All Good Things Collective devotionals and on the Grit and Grace Project.

This conversation was so moving and so life-giving, and I trust you will feel the same way when you listen.

(A note to listeners, Nicole and I reference a therapy model called Restoration Therapy, or RT, founded by Dr. Terry Hargrave in this interview. It is a model that is applicable to all of our lives in and out of the therapy room because of it’s accessibility and the way it helps us organize our stories. It works from the framework that violations of love and trustworthiness in our lives develop into problems of identity and safety for us. Once unproductive patterns about our identities and sense of safety are named, we can make thoughtful choices about what is true and about our personal beliefs and relationships, which can lead to lasting change.)

LISTEN HERE:

(Transcript of audio)

Monica:
So thank you so much for doing this. So excited to talk to talk with you.

Nicole:
I'm excited to talk with you.

Monica:
Awesome. I've been looking at your blog and reading your stuff is so good and I'm so excited. So, yeah. Um, well if, if you want, I'll just kind of like roll in and, and, and we'll start our little interview.

Nicole:
Sure. Can you hear me okay?

Monica:
Yeah, I can really hear you. Great. Um, yeah, so, um, you know, I'm so excited that you're talking to me today and I think there's so much of what we can all learn from you. And I first heard about you, we've never met in person, but at a, um, a therapy conference, I got to see you teach on forgiveness work and I got to see you do live, um, therapy, which is always a big undertaking. Um, and, and I just thought, wow, there's so much that I feel like I could learn from Nicole. And I feel like so many of us could learn. And then I started reading more just about your story and just about what you're doing and, um, your upcoming book and I'm just excited. So, um, I would love if you could kind of introduce yourself and just tell us just kind of what you do professionally, who you are personally or in the opposite order.

Nicole:
Sure. And thank you so much for having me. It's really fun to talk with you and connect with other therapists. So, I am a wife to Jimmy and mom to James who is now three. Um, and I professionally am a marriage and family therapist and that work mostly includes my private practice in Greenwich, Connecticut. Um, and about three to four times a year. I'm also at the Hideaway experience at their Georgia location mostly. Close to you in Rome. A beautiful setting and it's a four day marriage intensive. Uh, we, we typically see five couples in Georgia, so I am one of the therapists who rotates into that. As you mentioned, I'm also a writer. I coauthored a couple of books with my mentor, Terry Hargrave and I have my first trade book coming out next January.

Monica:
Awesome. And, and what, um, what are the books that you coauthored and what is the book that you have coming out?

Nicole:
Yeah, so I co authored Families and Forgiveness, the Second Edition, uh, with him a couple of years ago. And then most recently it actually just came out, um, it's called Restoration Therapy Techniques. So it dovetails with his first book, which I wasn't a part of that one, but the outlines, the restoration therapy model, which is the model I use in my work and has informed a lot of my personal processing as well. Um, and so this is more, it's definitely for therapists, um, or you know, people in helping professions. Um, very practical, more technique oriented versus, you know, there's definitely a summary of the theory, but it's very practical with case examples and what are these interventions actually look like. And so co-authored that with him and actually another Fuller professor of mine, um, from, from years ago. Yeah.

Monica:
Awesome. And so in the new book that you're working on, what is, what is that one about?

Nicole:
Yeah. So if that one, um, gets, into my personal story a little bit and certainly weaves my therapeutic knowledge as well. Um, because it was a huge part of how I was processing my own story. You know, I always say it's the book I could have written for it, anyone else, but myself. And then about eight years ago when we moved to Connecticut from California for my husband's job, um, my life was very comfortable in California and the move just happened to be just the beginning of a really painful season for me. Um, mostly characterized by change and loss. Um, I lost tangible things, you know, my home, my community. Um, I've lost five babies to miscarriage. Um, but I also lost in, in that tangible loss. I also lost all of my touch points of security. Um, my faith had a lot of props.

Monica:
Tell, tell us what you, what do you mean? I mean, I think I know what you mean, but that is such an awesome, um, and relatable way to put it. What touch points that you feel like we're holding up your faith and maybe your security. Did you, did you not have anymore?

Nicole:
Yeah, so what it was was the things that I had always used to cope with my pain of feeling insignificant and not good enough and um powerless and maybe even rejected too. Um, I mainly relied on performance, shame and perfectionism and what in California and really in my life up until I moved here in Connecticut, those things had been quote unquote working for me. Of course, they weren't really working in a healthy way, but I kinda got what I wanted by continuing to employ those things. So I was never a, to put it simply very motivated to let those things go. Um, or I was very afraid to let those things go for fear of who I would be without them and what happened in the move. And then the subsequent, events afterward was that those things just stopped working. I confronted pain as anything we do...

Nicole:
..in our pain that would fall into that coping category, they failed. And, and so that was extremely painful for me. You know, my performance did not win people over. People were not impressed by me. Um, it didn't earn me the security that I had sort of been able to earn myself in other seasons of life. And of course when I encountered the miscarriage, you know, no amount of hard work or grit or discipline on my end, uh, could fix that. Um, and so I, I really was, you know, I'd always sort of seen God's rescue in my life at saving me from unwanted circumstances. And now I see that sometimes as mercy looks like the failure of behaviors that were never meant to work and I didn't really know I needed rescuing from my own dreams.

Monica:
That's such a powerful statement. Wow.

Nicole:
Thank you. Um, and what I now recognized to be God's gracious graciousness to me, he gifted me a story that I would've never had the courage to choose for myself, but it's a story that ultimately led me to him. Um, and led me to his truth. I've been a Christian my whole life. Um, but I have a different understanding of who God is and I have a different relationship with him because those things have been stripped away. Um, I was sort of given an empty hands to receive something new. Um, but it took, you know, sort of prying my fingers off one by one of, each of those idols and entitlements that had become so important to me is so much a part of my identity.

Monica:
Wow. Wow. And so you, you encountered not out of choosing it, a pain that was too big for those coping things to work anymore, that performance shame and perfectionism just couldn't, they couldn't heal the miscarriage loss. And it sounds like being, you know, uprooted and in a whole new place. Um, you know, the performance wasn't working either.

Nicole:
No, none of it was, in any area. Um, and so I describe it as the most painful season of my life, but also the most hopeful because, um, of what I found in the wake of, of what I lost.

Monica:
Yes. Wow. And, and, and do you and you know, in, in your own experience and your own work, do you feel like that is not always, but often when we find the most hope or the most joy is when we find ourselves, um, stripped away from things that don't work and maybe an unwanted pain situation that there can be that mercy come in then...

Nicole:
I do. I think that thing about pain, the gift, it has to offer us, um, is A, you know, when I just described that that coping fails and leaves us open to something different, but B, we can't, we can't know the light unless we've known the dark, um, and hope, hope only gets deployed, um, in times of pain. Like we can't no hope without the need for it. And I think of Ecclesiastes three where there's Solomon sort of sets up those first 10 verses as a kind of ledger when he's talking about like, there's a time to be born and a time to die. And when you look at half of that ledger as negative and, um, half of that ledger as kind of unwanted and, and life that we sort of just get by. Um, and that the real life and the real joy happens on the other side of it. And what I've learned is that there's growing ground is on both sides and, and there's hope in any circumstance that ushers you into the deep love of God. Um, and at least that's true in my life as a person of faith. So, um, I've seen tremendous joy on, on the quote unquote dark side of that ledger. Um, because of how it's ushered me into a deeper love than I knew was possible.

Monica:
Wow. So when those, those things that you would, you employ before are stripped away, then there's room in your hands now for if, as you said, if you are a person of faith to experience God in a deeper way than you've ever even thought possible.

Nicole:
Yeah, exactly.

Monica:
And what if you were to tell us kind of like about performance and shame and perfectionism? I know what you mean by those words, but if someone doesn't know, like what, what does it mean to, to use performance to kind of protect yourself from pain? Like how would we know that we're doing that?

Nicole:
Sure, it can, it can have many different faces. What it usually looks like for me, um, is even just intense anxiety before I'm going to speak or, um, before I'm going to, um, put myself in a vulnerable position. Um, I'm more interested in winning you over, then I am connecting with you. So I'm more interested in you being impressed by me, then connected to me. And the audience may or may not be able to tell... Whether that's an audience of one person or a group. But it's the reason shame and performance are so connected is that usually when I'm performing, I've shamed myself with a message that says you are only as good as how you perform. Your identity is only as good as your last performance. So make it a good one. Um,

Monica:
Yes. You know, I've never heard it put that way, um...So well that we have to perform because we've already shamed ourselves. I don't believe that I'm enough or worthy just as I am just made. So I've got to prove that by the last one or the next performance.

Nicole:
Exactly. Exactly. And, and of course, it doesn't lead us to a very peaceful place because as we perform well, we have to stay there. And if we don't perform well, we have to work to prove and when our identity back, um, and that's where the perfectionism comes in because when perfectionism, um, is the way that you cope, there's sort of two options. I'm either perfect or I'm rejected, there's no room to be loved and imperfect. Um, when that's your mindset. So all of my coping are very connected. Um, but I can, if I really dissect them, I can see how they play off of each other in different ways.

Monica:
Absolutely. And we all have those, right? I have, I have mine as well. I'm a big, um, performer in shamer as well. Um, and so I can really relate to that. Those are some of my favorite coping mechanisms. Um, but you know, I'm interested too with now that now that you've gone through this season and these incredible insights that you've had, um, you've been able to kind of put down these coping mechanisms. I mean, and we all pick them back up and you know, all the time. Um, but, but sort of coming into this place where you have experienced this unwanted pain and experienced so much hope, um, how do you think that's helped you to understand the pain of other people in your life and maybe in a way that that wasn't even possible before?

Nicole:
Yeah, I think, I think Restoration Therapy in general, this whole idea of we all have these feelings or wounds, um, that are pretty consistently felt every time we experience pain.

Monica:
Can you tell us about that? What, what are those? Um, those things that we typically feel when we, when we are in pain. I mean, I know everyone has a different wording for them, but...

Nicole:
Sure, yeah, so there's, there's two broad categories. One is, um, if you experienced a violation of love growing up, you probably received a painful or confusing message about your identity, who you are. And so those feelings are typically feelings like unworthy, or not good enough, inadequate, worthless. Things that have to do with my personhood and who I am. Some people's story was more, um, came with some violations of safety, um, or violations of trust at let us know whether or not we were safe. Um, and so those feelings would look like, you know, powerless, or unsafe, or helpless, um, that, you know, we just learned that our environment or the people in our environment, couldn't be trusted. And so depending on your story, um, you received messages about your identity and sense of safety, um, that form the, the kind of pain you feel when you're in a painful situation now.

Nicole:
Um, and then in turn, we all develop ways that are totally understandable but not very helpful as adults...They may have been needed earlier. Um, but, of protecting ourselves from that pain or surviving that pain. And there's four broad categories of ways that we cope as human beings. Um, and there's specifics in each of these buckets. But the four broad categories are blame. You know, getting really angry, raging. Shame, beating ourselves up, giving ourselves a hurtful messages, um, uh, Controls, and that's a tough one because our culture really celebrates that one... So performance, perfectionism would fall under that. And then Escape, which has lots of different faces, but essentially anything that allows us to check out, um, some of them are more culturally acceptable than others. Um, but still serve the same emotional purpose of not feeling, or not dealing with whatever it is that I'm feeling. And it's so that's become the lens that I look at people's stories. So when, when a client or a friend is sharing their story, I don't, I don't do therapy with my friends, but when I hear a story that's the lens that I'm hearing it through, um, and it works because that's how I processed my own story. So when I was writing my book, it was almost impossible to separate, um, my own story from my own processing from this idea of that Restoration Therapy outlines.

Monica:
And, and, and since, you know, with the book, can you tell us a little bit more about what is going to be in it? What do we have to look forward to? Um, you know, you've sort of touched a little bit on your story that what the book will kind of highlight and, and walk people through.

Nicole:
Yes. So, um, it's, it's what I shared when I was talking about my own story, that whole idea that, um, you know, God's rescue of me, I never imagined that it would look like prying my fingers off those things, but sometimes it's the failure of those behaviors that were never meant to work and that his graciousness to us is bringing us into his deeper love, um, and my discovery of that. And it also invites the reader and prompts the reader along the way to process their own story and that very same way.

Monica:
That's so cool. I love that.

Nicole:
Thank you. I'm excited. Um, I'm really excited about it. I actually just, I turn in my first round of edits tomorrow, so yes, absolutely. Yeah. I, I'm excited because... The details of your story might be very different than maybe your loss, um, didn't look like miscarriage or maybe it isn't a story of loss, but a story of change. Um, but whatever your story is at, my hope is that you'll be able to find yourselves in these themes and see how God is working through your story to bring you closer to him and his truth. Um, that's my hope and prayer.

Monica:
I love that. That's so cool. And like, I think, I think that we learn so much through stories and we learn so much through people's vulnerability when they, when they it through their stories. But I've never heard of sort of pairing that with an active walking through. I'm so excited. I'm excited for myself and for everybody. Um, yeah. To be able to, you know, to experience your story as they read it, but then to be able to engage with their own cause like you said, you know, we all, we all have pain. We all cope probably in a few ways that overlap with each other. But all of our histories of what is coming in our life are just so different.

Nicole:
Yes, absolutely.

Monica:
Mm. Um, and, you know, speaking of sort of the, the loss and the pain that you've found yourself in with miscarriages in particular, I think that this, um, grief is something that, that that just isn't talked about enough and is that we often don't know what to do when someone in our life is, is struggling with this. And, and I'm wondering for you, you know, as you have had this unwanted grief, um, and these experiences of miscarriage, what have you learned about, um, and of course we're all very different. Um, but what have you learned about, um, pain and community and in people that um coming alongside you that, that could help all of us love people in our lives that are dealing with this kind of pain in particular. And I'm, and then pain in general.

Nicole:
Yeah, I think it is, it does seem to be a situation or circumstance that I think we're hesitant as friends to step into because I don't want to make it worse and we don't want to say the wrong thing. And there's certainly other situations like that. Um, uh, my, my general, uh, wisdom that or rule of them is, um, just say something, even if it's, I don't know what to say. Um, I've had people reach out to me and say that and serve me. That's really healing. Cause I know they, they were trying to connect and they're also acknowledging, I know that there's nothing I'm going to say that fixes this, but I want you to know that I'm here. I wish I could take it away and if I can't take it away, I'm going to sit in the mud with you so you're, you're not alone in it. Um, I think the other thing that, that has been really helpful to me on the receiving end is just instead of asking, you know, is there anything I can do...

Monica:
That's a hard one, right? I mean cause when you're the...

NIcole:
Yeah, it, it's tough because you sometimes there is, and if it's a certain kind of friend, I know I can ask. And sometimes even if there is an offer, it's hard to someone up on that.

Monica:
Oh yeah. There's so many, so many roadblocks in that, even though it's well intentioned, there's just roadblocks. Yeah.

Nicole:
But honestly, I appreciate anything that says, so I never want to make somebody feel like they have to say the perfect thing. Something that's been really helpful for me is when people say, I want to do something. Yes. What would tell me what would be most meaningful to you? So they've already signed up, right? They just need, they need help from me knowing what would be most meaningful.

Monica:
And that's such a different angle though, you know, cause one is saying, I am going to help you tell me how that would be best helpful. Right. Versus the other one that let me know. Um, it's just, it's a really subtle shift that I think that if we all could remember that, um, it makes so much sense why that would be easier to kind of step into as the one who is needing help. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and you know, with this one thing that I feel like we really isn't talked about very much either is that as a mom, because I know you have a son, um, and you know, as you're struggling and parenting, um, that's, that's a, that, you know, parenting never stops. And that's, that's the thing that continues to surprise me as a parent is that it's just, you know, life goes on and there's hard days and good days, but we still have to show up for these little people in the best way we can. Um, and what, what are your thoughts about, um, parenting and being a mom, um, when you're in a time of struggle, you know, and, and, and, and what did you pull on to kind of help you to pull on your relationship with God? Or what did you pull on with that?

Nicole:
Yeah, that's such a great question. Um, it's been, it's been chest December, through February of this year especially. I mean, I've hit other seasons like that, but it's fresh in my mind because my son was old enough at that point to process a bit more of what was going on in, there have been days in that season where we go over to a friend's house and you know, these are very dear friends and he would say to my friend, his friend's mom, you know, my mommy's feeling really sad today. Um, you just hearing that would break my heart. And I, I have to remember the, what the research says that the most powerful thing for kids is not that they see their parents okay all the time, or without feelings but actually, that they see their parents self regulate that feeling. Um, and that I can be sad and have feelings and I can be okay. And so I usually in three year old terms, they usually say, you know, money is sad, but I'm also okay. And, and the adult version would be, we can be in pain and at peace at the same time that that piece is not an absence of feeling, but that were hanging on to truth in the midst of it, even while the feelings are very real,

Monica:
Absolutely.

Nicole:
That I can have these strong feelings, but also carry a hope and a joy and a peace that, um, you know, what is dark today is not going to be dark forever. Um, and so that's, that's what I cling to on those days where I know he sees the tears from me me or, um, and also just appreciating what I have gained from the pain. Um, I'm not a silver linings is person or feel like we need to, you know, look for the silver lining or the bright side. Um, but I do think pain has offered me a lot and given me a lot of gifts and one of them is, I don't see him the same way. Um, I don't see my son the same way. I think Chad, I not up gone through everything I've gone through. Admittedly, I sort of would have seen having a baby as a next step or something I get to do because I would be a good mom. You know, I sort of felt entitled to it. Um, and now I just see him as purely grace. That everything good in this life is grace. Um, it's not because I've earned it. It's not because I've been good enough, um, that he is a gift and a grace.

Monica:
Wow. That's so powerful. I could listen to talk about this all day. So it's just so good. It's so good. And you know, this sounds like with that feeling of grace that it's all grace. It's all gift. That there's probably so much more freedom there too. Um, that, that we can't perform if it's grace. Right. We came back like we can't perfect if it's grace, it's just, you know, there's, there's almost a, um, a surrender in that place too, right?

Nicole:
Yes.

Monica:
Um, well, you know, I wouldn't, I would love to hear just a little bit too about, I know that you've written a lot about forgiveness and, you know, just as we sort of start to wrap up, I would love just to ask you, can we...forgiveness...obviously there's a whole book about it, like it's a big deal. Um, but, but I would love to, you know, to hear that so often we just don't even know what to do about forgiveness. Right. That it's just overwhelming. People don't know what it means, that they often think they're have to go knock on the door of someone who hurt them if, if they're going to forgive them. Right. Um, and I'm just curious for you, you know, what, what misconceptions do you run into forgiveness and what is more of the truth? And again, a huge question, um, but what are some of the misconceptions versus what is more of the reality for all of us, um, about forgiveness?

Nicole:
Yeah. And I can't take credit for these ideas. These are, these are all Terry Hargrave's and I've just done a lot of research on it. But, um, I think some of the biggest that I confront even in my own practice is that, um, and unfortunately the, I feel like these are particularly strong in the faith community...a common one... Is that forgiveness is letting go. Um, and those two things are not the same. Um, forgiveness, uh, which brings me to the next misconception. Um, people think that forgiveness looks the same in every situation and it just does not. There are certain elements of forgiveness in the book. We talk about four different stations and you heard me articulate those when you heard me speak, but, um, some of those stations are appropriate for certain situations and some are not. And I, I think especially, I mean, I, I'm in the faith community around this conversation the most. Um, but I think we can easily say, well, you've forgiven more if you've done all of those stations. Um, and really what I think we're talking about is reconciliation and that's my next, misconception is that forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing.

Monica:
That's just really good news I think for so many of us that have someone to forgive but the person isn't safe to reconcile with.

Nicole:
Yes. Yes. And I think people, like you were saying, you feel like they need to white knuckle that experience and put themselves in a vulnerable situation. Um, you know, the basis for a lot of ideas in the book is a man named Tillich's model. Um, and it's a triangle with love, justice and power on each of the three points. Um, and I think one of the, I think the thing we struggle with the most, or that I see most often is people thinking that forgiveness is love, pursued in isolation without justice that demands a sense of fairness or power to set boundaries for things that are unhealthy. And so love by itself doesn't seem like it would be a bad idea...

Nicole:
But in a forgiveness situation, it can set the victim up to just be victimized over and over and over again...with no expectation of change. And we would say that forgiveness with integrity always demands some kind of change. That even if you are reconciling the relationship, it is not going back to the original form, it is, that relationship is changing in a new and better way, moving into the future. Um, so even if you're able to reconcile, um, you know, I, I often use the analogy of like, if a house, if your house burns down, most likely you're not going to rebuild that house exactly the way it was before. You're going to say, you know what? The kitchen would really be better over there... Or you're, you're gonna, you're gonna make it work better for your life and you're going to make the necessary changes that you need to move forward. And even reconciliation is the same way.

Monica:
Love that. Wow, that's so powerful and so freeing. Um, and I think people stay bound up often in unforgiveness because of just misconceptions. Right? And that you know, that we can have healthy boundaries. There can be justice and we can forgive.

Nicole:
Yeah. And one thing I would say, you spoke to this a little bit, but if you're a person who has been hesitant to go to therapy because of what the therapist is going to make you do... Forgiveness is a client guided process. First and foremost, our role as therapists is certainly first and foremost to protect the client. Um, secondly, there might be a role that we play that, you know, opens up possibility or challenges toward that possibility, but there is never going to be any forced action on that possibility if it's not an interest of the client. So, this is a safe topic to explore in therapy.

Monica:
Absolutely, that, that you won't be re-traumatized by having to look at forgiveness, that you're in the driver's seat as the client, as the person exploring what forgiveness might look like for you. Exactly. I love that. Well, one question that I'm asking everyone is just what is an unexpected person or event or thing that played a part in you becoming who you are today? Becoming the Nicole that we get to talk to today. Um, and this could be funny, this could be um, deep, but what's, what is something that has been an important part of your process, and I know there's many things, but what's one thing that's been important part of your process of becoming who you are today?

Nicole:
Yeah, so I instantly thought of two...

Monica:
Okay, great. Let's do too. Yes, please.

Nicole:
These two just sprung to my mind, one is not surprising at all. Um, but I, as I mentioned earlier, Terry, Hargrave has had such a profound impacts on not only my professional work and my personal life. I am not the same therapist. I am not the same person.

Monica:
He's your mentor, right?

Nicole:
He's my mentor, yep, and he not only came up with this model that's changed my life Restoration Therapy, but um, his influence, and care, and love in my life. Um, I could cry talking about it has, his and, and his, his wife, Sharon. Really, um, They have both just shaped me so profoundly. Wow. Um, I am not the same person because of them. Um, and then my surprising one is on the deeper end as my five unborn babes. My, my story, each one, as much as I wish I could have met them on earth and look forward to meeting them on the other side. Um, they have changed who I am as a mom, um, who I am in, in terms of my understanding of God and the relationship that I have with God. Um, they've changed my marriage. Um, it, it was great before, but it's different and deeper and sweeter now.

Nicole:
So if I had to go through that, and again, I'm not sure I would've had the courage to choose it, but God was so gracious to me and allowing me to take so much from those experiences. Um, that has left me changed. And so I'm grateful.

Monica:
Wow. You give us so much hope. I know all of us, whether we are in pain right now or we know someone who is that...

Monica:
Just gives us, you've got me choked up. So much pain. So much hope that, um, that when we're in pain that we, you know, we won't be left that way. Um, and that we could have hope as well. Um, and that we could, um, one day say like you're saying, this is something that's really changed me. I would've never chosen it, but I met God through it. I found hope through it. I had things that didn't work for me anymore, just taken from my hands. Um, yeah. Wow. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I'm just so moved and I'm so grateful for your voice and, and I'm so excited for what you're working on. And for, you know, um, how many people will be impacted. Like I am right now in this 40 minutes,

Nicole:
You're so kind.

Monica:
I'm truly moved. So thank you so much..

Nicole:
Thank you.

Monica:
I really appreciate it.